DiscussMormonism.com

Analytics wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:33 pm

Is $20 billion an estimate of total gross income, or an estimate of the total profit that accumulated on the balance sheet over the year?

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't consider an increase in the value of an asset or investment as money that was "made." You don't "make" the money until you sell the asset or investment. I mean, my house might have gone up in value $20,000 in the last year, but I didn't "make" $20,000. I'd only see that money if I sold the house.

So did the Church actually sell any of the investments, or is this just a reflection of the increase in value?

cinepro wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:36 pm

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't consider an increase in the value of an asset or investment as money that was "made." You don't "make" the money until you sell the asset or investment. I mean, my house might have gone up in value $20,000 in the last year, but I didn't "make" $20,000. I'd only see that money if I sold the house.

So did the Church actually sell any of the investments, or is this just a reflection of the increase in value?

If the Church was not a tax-free entity, would it be paying a long-term capital gains tax?

cinepro wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:36 pm

Analytics wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:33 pm

Is $20 billion an estimate of total gross income, or an estimate of the total profit that accumulated on the balance sheet over the year?

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't consider an increase in the value of an asset or investment as money that was "made." You don't "make" the money until you sell the asset or investment. I mean, my house might have gone up in value $20,000 in the last year, but I didn't "make" $20,000. I'd only see that money if I sold the house.

So did the Church actually sell any of the investments, or is this just a reflection of the increase in value?

You're quite right, the Church would have to use the money for something to crystallise the gain. If only they had something worthwhile to spend it on...

There is another question here, if the fund gained $6 billion in value in and of itself...where did all the tithing go in 2020?

I wonder how an apologist would explain the bounteous harvest the supposed "rainy day" fund obtained from its Tesla investment? Surely prosperity is a sign of the truth? Change the subject quickly?

A scripture comes to mind: Yea and verily, to maintain thee and thy house more unspotted from the world, thou shalt invest the Lord's funds, pumping up the Lord's house to eternal proportions, letting the world know of thy bounty, then shalt thou dump the Lord's investments for charity's sake, so that the Lord's increase may be maintained for other pumping opportunities. Verily, I come quickly to collect debts as they come due when the leaves are yet tender. 1 Greed 7:5.

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 am

There is another question here, if the fund gained $6 billion in value in and of itself...where did all the tithing go in 2020?

Can you expand on your question?

If you made $80k a year at your job (your revenue), and also owned a house that appreciated by $50k in a year, you didn't "make" $130k. You had $80k in revenue, and your net worth increased by another $50k. But you can't spend the $50k from the house appreciation unless you sell the house, so you still need the revenue.

Likewise, the Church's investments might have increased by $6b, but it doesn't get that money until it sells the investments, so it still needs revenue/tithing to pay the bills.

Of course, this raises the question of why the Church doesn't start selling its investments to generate revenue, either to give people a break on tithing or to use it to do good works. But until they actually start selling off their investments, the answer to "where did all the tithing go?" is "it paid the bills (and any excess was probably invested)."

cinepro wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:52 pm

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 am

There is another question here, if the fund gained $6 billion in value in and of itself...where did all the tithing go in 2020?

Can you expand on your question?

I don't how that is necessary. It's a simple question that points to the need for a fully transparent accounting.

If you made $80k a year at your job (your revenue), and also owned a house that appreciated by $50k in a year, you didn't "make" $130k. You had $80k in revenue, and your net worth increased by another $50k. But you can't spend the $50k from the house appreciation unless you sell the house, so you still need the revenue.

Likewise, the Church's investments might have increased by $6b, but it doesn't get that money until it sells the investments, so it still needs revenue/tithing to pay the bills.

Of course, this raises the question of why the Church doesn't start selling its investments to generate revenue, either to give people a break on tithing or to use it to do good works. But until they actually start selling off their investments, the answer to "where did all the tithing go?" is "it paid the bills (and any excess was probably invested)."

You're guessing at the answer. Because you really don't know. Nor do we know the increase in value on the Church's other investments and assets, as Dr Moore upstream points towards.

I'd like the Church to give a full, transparent, accounting to all the members. A shareholders report as it were. Don't tithe paying members deserve that? It's sure to be faith promoting, right? They can explain why they're amassing increasing amounts of wealth at a time when members and communities are really struggling, when in parts of the world children are suffering because of a lack of resources, right? Because Jesus needs all that wealth, right?

Transparency should be a trait synonymous with a Christ centric institution, because why not when God is on your side?

If there was only a way Jesus could just make.... you know...... just a little more gold and somehow find a way to get it to the poor countries... or else, find a way to actually turn dirty water to clean drinking water for so many, instead of the glorious water to wine trick... I mean, gosh, if somehow Jesus could just do something helpful, like send rain clouds over dry grounds to help them produce a little more food for the starving, since his earthly representatives are too busy waiting for a rainy day before they begin to help out. Perhaps it's asking too much for a deity to multitask? I'm probably overstepping my bounds on what a deity's limitations actually are, so perhaps I ought to apologize to him and just get back to praising him and praying...

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:02 pm

cinepro wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:52 pm

Can you expand on your question?

I don't how that is necessary. It's a simple question that points to the need for a fully transparent accounting.

If you made $80k a year at your job (your revenue), and also owned a house that appreciated by $50k in a year, you didn't "make" $130k. You had $80k in revenue, and your net worth increased by another $50k. But you can't spend the $50k from the house appreciation unless you sell the house, so you still need the revenue.

Likewise, the Church's investments might have increased by $6b, but it doesn't get that money until it sells the investments, so it still needs revenue/tithing to pay the bills.

Of course, this raises the question of why the Church doesn't start selling its investments to generate revenue, either to give people a break on tithing or to use it to do good works. But until they actually start selling off their investments, the answer to "where did all the tithing go?" is "it paid the bills (and any excess was probably invested)."

You're guessing at the answer. Because you really don't know. Nor do we know the increase in value on the Church's other investments and assets, as Dr Moore upstream points towards.

I'd like the Church to give a full, transparent, accounting to all the members. A shareholders report as it were. Don't tithe paying members deserve that? It's sure to be faith promoting, right? They can explain why they're amassing increasing amounts of wealth at a time when members and communities are really struggling, when in parts of the world children are suffering because of a lack of resources, right? Because Jesus needs all that wealth, right?

Transparency should be a trait synonymous with a Christ centric institution, because why not when God is on your side?

If you're a memeber, you just need to ask, apparently:

Gordon B. Hinckley Interview Transcript– ZDF German Television wrote:REPORTER:

In my country, the…we say the people’s churches, the protestants, the catholics, they publish all their budgets, to all the public.

HINCKLEY:

Yeah. Yeah.

REPORTER:

Why is it impossible for your church?

HINCKLEY:

Well, we simply think that the…that information belongs to those who made the contribution, and not to the world. That’s the only thing. Yes.

https://wasmormon.org/gordon-b-hinckley ... elevision/

Ummmmm, why did the fund end 2020 with only 44 billion?

And that was after accruing the 6.2 billion.

Take that away, and the FOX News report is saying that the EPA was down to 38 billion during 2020.

I thought the EPA fund had over 100 billion according to the leaker.

Is this odd or am I just missing something?

The public filings show only shares in publicly traded companies.

That figure is approx 20-25% of ensign peak total investment holdings.