Other Religious Forgeries

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Kishkumen
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Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Kishkumen »

As many of you know, I tend to harp on the problem that not having the gold plates is for those who claim the Book of Mormon is ancient, perhaps to the point that some of you are tired of me repeatedly bringing our attention to the problem. I am unrepentant, and I feel somewhat vindicated by a recent blogpost on a forthcoming book wherein certain 19th-century forgeries containing passages from Deuteronomy (the Shapira Strips) are now being treated as genuine yet again. Here is one clear-eyed view on the problem of arguing in favor of the authenticity of vanished texts:
If the Shapira Fragments were to surface today, the leather would be subjected to carbon 14 tests; the ink would be subjected to chemical analyses (e.g., using a scanning electron microscope equipped with an EDS); there would be very careful analyses, using magnification, of the script itself, its morphology, the stance of the letters, and the ductus (i.e., the number of strokes forming a letter, the direction of those strokes, and the order of those strokes); the patina on the surface above the ink would be analyzed for modern contaminants in it and under it; there would be analyzes of the ways in which the ink had or had not flowed into the current cracks in the leather itself (much as was recently done with the Museum of the Bible’s Dead Sea Scrolls Forgeries). But the Shapira Fragments are lost to history. They were presumably destroyed. So there is no way to do these sorts of basic, benchmark, empirical analyses. And without these sorts of analyses today, no inscription would be declared ancient by a serious scholar trained in epigraphy.

But, in essence, Idan Dershowitz is essentially asking that we forget about all that, and consider the Shapira Strips to be ancient manuscripts, not modern forgeries. But since the Shapira Strips have disappeared, and are presumably gone forever: (a) there can be no carbon 14 tests of the leather, (b) there can be no laboratory testing of the chemical composition of the ink (e.g., using a Scanning Electron Microscope equipped with an EDS), (c) there can be no careful palaeographic analysis of the script using magnification of the inscriptions themselves, (d) there can be no laboratory analysis of the patina which is present on the leather or on the ink, (e) and there can be no analyses of the ways in which the ink has adhered to the leather (e.g., when someone attempts to forge a manuscript today, the ink will often “leak” into ancient cracks in the leather…and that is very telling, of course). Moreover, looking at a photo or a hand-copy of an inscription is absolutely not the same as holding an inscription in your hands. There is just no substitute for being able to look at a manuscript oneself and to collate it oneself. Thus, for someone to attempt to declare the Shapira Strips ancient or authentic in spite of the fact that none of these analyses (such as those listed above) can be done is an absolute deal breaker. We simply must be able to analyze the Shapira Strips themselves (i.e., the actual documents) before anyone can make a compelling declaration of antiquity.

To put it differently, if an inscription appeared on the antiquities market today, a smart, methodologically savvy, trained epigrapher (i.e., a scholar trained in the actual ancient media, ancient writing technologies, ancient media, etc.) would not declare an inscription to be ancient without first subjecting the inscription to the examinations mentioned above. Thus, to ask us today to accept as ancient the Shapira Strips when such analyses cannot be done is a bridge too far, way too far. And, of course, on top of all this, the evidence (mentioned already back in 1883 and 1884 is quite damning, including, but not limited to, the anomalies with the script). The Shapira Strips are modern forgeries.
For more information about the Shapira Strips, see http://www.rollstonepigraphy.com/?p=896 ... d6xD_WfZyY

Idan Dershowitz's argument in favor of the antiquity of the Shapira Strips can be found in part in the following article: “The Valediction of Moses: New Evidence on the Shapira Deuteronomy Fragments,” ZAW 133 (2021): 1-22

Don't Christopher Rollston's comments, quoted above, apply just as well to the gold plates and the Book of Mormon?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Manetho
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Manetho »

Given the incident in which William Hussey tried to uncover the plates in a drawer and found only a tile brick, there is a real possibility that the "plates" wouldn't have stood up to scrutiny with eyeballs, let alone scientific testing. When Grindael brought up that incident a few years ago, I asked him if he knew of any other case in which someone other than Smith saw the "plates" uncovered. In all his encyclopedic knowledge of the founding era of Mormonism, he did not.

It may be something of a distraction from the point of your post to bring this up; even if they were actual golden plates rather than a tile brick, the inability to examine them is a massive problem. I just feel like it highlights how Smith's claims seem even sillier the more closely one looks at them.
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Fence Sitter »

Manetho wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:15 pm

It may be something of a distraction from the point of your post to bring this up; even if they were actual golden plates rather than a tile brick, the inability to examine them is a massive problem. I just feel like it highlights how Smith's claims seem even sillier the more closely one looks at them.
It gets worse. Even if someone had the opportunity to examine them (or the prop Smith created) no one could claim they were fakes or confirm they were real because of the back story about reformed Egyptian. Any witness would still have to take Smith's word that the markings on the plates directly corresponded to the English in the Book of Mormon. Remember it took over a hundred years for the Kinderhook plates to be conclusively shown to be fakes.
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by DrStakhanovite »

Salutations Right Reverend Kishkumen!
Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:17 pm
Don't Christopher Rollston's comments, quoted above, apply just as well to the gold plates and the Book of Mormon?
That was an excellent read, thank you for bringing it to my attention. There is a strange disassociation that happens in discourse about the Book of Mormon that always unsettled me, but I could never quite put my finger on it until I read your post.

When one begins a study of an ancient thinker like Aristotle, there is a natural progression followed by just about any and every person. First you read Aristotle in a modern language and your passion gets sparked, so you immediately want to read everything attributed to Aristotle and begin the task of trying to comprehend the historical and social context of Aristotle’s life. Eventually you hit a brick wall and can’t really progress until you gain proficiency in the ancient languages Aristotle’s work was preserved in. At some point, one has to examine (either physically or digitally) the actual surviving ancient documents for yourself to gain further insight.

Now the above can be repeated for just about any topic in ancient history and is the path everyone who has an interest in these topics takes at some point. I think it shows the absolute vital link between text and artifact, we may be able to abstract text away from an artifact and render it into a modern language to grant widespread access, but at some point you have to come back to the artifact for important insights. Failure to do this can only critically limit one’s understanding of the text.

The Book of Mormon is a text without a corresponding artifact, purportedly written in a language that is completely unknown to everyone, whose production and proliferation can only be traced back to the first half of the 19th century.

This means the Book of Mormon cannot be practically studied like any other work with ancient origins, it can only be studied as a modern religious work. Yet the culture surrounding the study of this work seems very reluctant to admit this and Mopologists themselves are so hostile to this fact that even considering it is enough for them to banish you.
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by DrStakhanovite »

And then it just occurred to me, the case for the Shapira Scroll being legitimately ancient is actually stronger than that of the Book of Mormon. At least the Shapira Scroll was written on a historically appropriate medium, in a known language, with characters that can be clearly analyzed, from a geographical region that makes sense. On the surface the existence of the Shapira Scroll is plausible.

None of this can be said for the Book of Mormon.
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Equality »

The only thing I know about this is what I read in this NY Times article and the accompanying Twitter thread of Avishay Ben Sasson-Gordis. My understanding from that article is that Dershowitz isn't making the affirmative claim that the Shapira texts are definitely genuine but rather that we cannot say that they are definitely forgeries (it's not entirely clear, though. Edited to add: having read Rollston's post, it appears that Dershowitz is, in fact, making the affirmative claim that the Shapira texts are genuine and not just that they are not definitively forged).

Having the originals and subjecting them to Carbon-14 tests and the like would tell us definitively if they were modern forgeries, but I think there is still value in looking at the text itself and examining whether the text contains clues as to whether it is a forgery or *could* be genuine. The Book of Mormon fails the credibility test based on the text alone, even in the absence of the plates from which the text was purportedly derived, as the text contains numerous anachronisms and "tells" that reveal its 19th-century origins. It's interesting that Dershowitz's analysis of the text doesn't seem to reveal the same obvious 19th-century giveaways that the Book of Mormon contains. Or, at least, that's what I got from the NYT article. As I said, I don't really know anything more about it.

Also, Dershowitz says he is going to debunk Rollston's debunking of Dershowitz's debunking of the original academic-consensus debunking of the Shapira claims "soon": https://Twitter.com/IdanDershowitz/stat ... 38436?s=20
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by mentalgymnast »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:21 pm

The Book of Mormon is a text without a corresponding artifact, purportedly written in a language that is completely unknown to everyone, whose production and proliferation can only be traced back to the first half of the 19th century.

This means the Book of Mormon cannot be practically studied like any other work with ancient origins, it can only be studied as a modern religious work. Yet the culture surrounding the study of this work seems very reluctant to admit this and Mopologists themselves are so hostile to this fact that even considering it is enough for them to banish you.
Just a quick question from a non academic layperson.

OK, let’s take the plates out of the picture. If you, DrStakhanovite, were to take a purported scriptural record appearing in our day seriously, what would be the acceptable means by which that record would appear? And just for kicks, let’s say that the record is also from God.

As in God with a capital G. The BIG guy. The real deal.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Themis »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:17 pm
Don't Christopher Rollston's comments, quoted above, apply just as well to the gold plates and the Book of Mormon?
For the most part. One difference is the Book of Mormon makes very specific claims about ancient history that are completely separated from the person who brought us the Book of Mormon. Joseph could not have known almost anything about this world, so if we see lots of evidence to show the claims of this world have some good accuracy, it would represent some good evidence of the Gold Plates existence and antiquity.
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by DrStakhanovite »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:02 pm
Just a quick question from a non academic layperson.

OK, let’s take the plates out of the picture. If you, DrStakhanovite, were to take a purported scriptural record appearing in our day seriously, what would be the acceptable means by which that record would appear? And just for kicks, let’s say that the record is also from God.

As in God with a capital G. The BIG guy. The real deal.

Regards,
MG
I take the Book of Mormon seriously in the sense that it is considered divinely inspired by a large group of people and have no problem seeing it categorized with the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, Qur’an, Baháʼí scriptures, etc, etc. I think close study of the Book of Mormon can be equally rewarding for Mormon and Non-Mormon alike, regardless of beliefs about the book’s origins.

Now if you want the Book of Mormon to be treated as an ancient document then people are going to need more than a text written in 19th century English, ideally some kind of vorlage that predates Joseph Smith. We are also going to want a material culture that was capable of producing alloyed plates with engravings on them, along with information about the languages employed by this literate culture, even if the language is incomprehensible and unable to be translated.

What would it take for me to believe a modern (or ancient) text was divinely inspired? I don’t know. I’m not really confident that if God existed that would be their chosen method of communication. I’ve yet to come across a compelling reason to believe that God would even use language as we understand it today.
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Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Bought Yahoo »

What about the Bible? The New Testament specifically. It stands on weaker ground that the Book of Mormon.
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