Facing The Proverbial Music

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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Coggins7 wrote:The original subject of this thread was:


Some more interesting analysis and data from the scholars at The Howard Center on the overwhelming importance of the intact nuclear family and the consistent presence of mother in the home, as well as the failure of the long standing feminist project of the equalization of genders and its cultural pseudopod, the working mother who works not because of need through divorce or death of a spouse, but because of material lifestyle concerns or ego gratification (which is, unfortunately, the reason all to many men seek the career paths they do).



I do believe the essays I posted supported the basic thrust of my point (and their's), quite well. What did you want me do address?


Actually, I asked you questions regarding the original subject of this thread. Are you planning to address them and when might I expect that to happen?

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:The original subject of this thread was:


Some more interesting analysis and data from the scholars at The Howard Center on the overwhelming importance of the intact nuclear family and the consistent presence of mother in the home,


Elsewhere you said that you preferred that mothers not work. Is that what you mean by "consistent presence....in the home"?

as well as the failure of the long standing feminist project of the equalization of genders and its cultural pseudopod, the working mother who works not because of need through divorce or death of a spouse, but because of material lifestyle concerns or ego gratification (which is, unfortunately, the reason all to many men seek the career paths they do).


This last bit seems especially wrong-headed. "Because of material lifestyle concerns"? What is that supposed to mean? The research indicates that kids are better off if they come from a higher socioeconomic background, which means, in most cases, that the mother needs to contribute an income to the family in addition to the man's.

I do believe the essays I posted supported the basic thrust of my point (and their's), quite well. What did you want me do address?


The problem is that your point is hypocritical, and riddled with contradictions. Perhaps you would like to backtrack to your confusion as to how and why maternal leave and breastfeeding might have something to do with your (contradictory) position.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Loran,

I read much of the first post you made, but not all of it. I'd like to throw out a couple of questions to you and see what you have to say.

1. What is it that you think a child needs most during his/her early years?

2. What type of family situation do you think best meets the needs of the child in his/her early years?

3. If the ideal situation is unavailble to the child, how do you think the child's needs (based on your answer to #1) could best be met?

Let's start there...

Jersey Girl



1. Love, acceptance, security, an intellectually stimulating and varied environment, emotional and psychological stability.

2. An intact two parent family in which the mother is the primary (but not in any manner sole) caregiver and nurturer.

3. By the next best scenario, which would most probably be a single parent (mother or father) raising the child with the help of committed extended family.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Facing The Proverbial Music

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:Some more interesting analysis and data from the scholars at The Howard Center on the overwhelming importance of the intact nuclear family and the consistent presence of mother in the home, as well as the failure of the long standing feminist project of the equalization of genders and its cultural pseudopod, the working mother who works not because of need through divorce or death of a spouse, but because of material lifestyle concerns or ego gratification (which is, unfortunately, the reason all to many men seek the career paths they do).


Loran---

Let's take a closer look at the first tidbit you posted:

Depressed Without Mom, Delinquent Without Dad

Mothers help keep teens from falling victim to anxiety and depression; fathers help keep adolescents from turning belligerent and defiant.


An interesting claim. Let's see if it is borne out in the evidence which this article actually cites:

Of course, in an age of rampant divorce, custodial mothers may try to do their best for their children, but noncustodial fathers can do very little for their offspring’s psychological development.

The markedly different ways that mothers and fathers affect their adolescent children’s lives are detailed in a study recently published in the Journal of Early Adolescence by a team of researchers at Yale and Florida State Universities. But because so many fathers are now largely absent from their children’s lives, the paternal side of the parental equation remains merely a theoretical abstraction for many of the teens in this new study.

Scrutinizing data collected from 116 sixth- through eighth-grade students (selected so as to be demographically representative for the state of Florida), the Yale and Florida State analysts look for indications of how parents affect their adolescent children’s lives. The data in this study clearly indicate that “fathers are less involved in parenting their adolescent children than are mothers and that adolescents report feeling more securely attached to their mothers than to their fathers.” The influence of mothers on their adolescent children further manifests itself in statistical analyses establishing that for “internalizing problems” (I.e., problems manifest by “extreme shyness, worry, anxiety, and depression), “maternal factors ... outweigh paternal factors in terms of relative influence.”


Did you not read this part? Or did you not understand it? What this is telling us is that mothers have a greater influence on negative "internalizing" than fathers do. Would you care to explain how this relates to your argument in any way, shape, or form whatsoever? Are you claiming that moms should stay home, since they have a greater influence on the internalizing of problems?

However, when the Yale and Florida State scholars shift their focus to adolescent children’s “externalizing problems” (evident in “hyperactivity, impulsivity, aggression, and delinquency”), the researchers see fathers’ influence eclipsing that of mothers. “For externalizing behavior problems in the full sample,” the researchers report, “the paternal factors (involvement and attachment) explained significant, unique variance; however, maternal factors did not.” Surprisingly, fathers’ effect on externalizing behaviors shows up in particular strength among adolescent daughters, “with fathers apparently exerting more influence on girls’ externalizing behaviors than on the expression of similar behaviors in their sons.”


Again, how does this support your argument? On a sidenote: I have seen studies which demonstrate that sons raised by lesbian mothers tend to be less aggressive. Do you like the sound of that, Loran?

What is more, when the researchers examine data for “total behavioral problems” for both boys and girls, they conclude that “only the paternal factors of involvement and attachment were found to be uniquely significant.” In other words, “for externalizing and total behavioral problems, the father-child variables outweighed the mother-child variables” for both genders.


Once more: how does this support your argument? This says *nothing* about the importance of moms staying at home. In fact, this article does not mention whether the moms were working or not at all....

Not surprisingly, adolescent children are not likely to feel attached to a father who does not live with them, nor is an absentee father likely to be very involved in their lives. The authors of this study in fact report that “nonresident fathers were found to be less actively involved, in comparison to resident fathers, in the lives of their teenage children.” The researchers further remark that “the teens of nonresident fathers also reported feeling less securely attached to their fathers than did their peers whose fathers lived with them.”

Since this new study identifies weak paternal involvement and attachment as statistical predictors of adolescent behavior problems, its findings can only underscore the vulnerability of the many teens now growing up without fathers.


But where did the article mention this? Perhaps you can enlighten me. Basically, this seems like a hack-job.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

(Shades if you read this please don't advise me to use the quote feature. This is the only best way I know how to conduct this type of dialogue)



Jersey Girl: 1. What is it that you think a child needs most during his/her early years?


Loran: 1. Love, acceptance, security, an intellectually stimulating and varied environment, emotional and psychological stability.

Jersey Girl: I agree completely.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jersey Girl: 2. What type of family situation do you think best meets the needs of the child in his/her early years?


Loran: 2. An intact two parent family in which the mother is the primary (but not in any manner sole) caregiver and nurturer.

Jersey Girl: Again, I agree completely. Let's put this and the first series on the side and continue with the third series, if you're willing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jersey Girl: 3. If the ideal situation is unavailble to the child, how do you think the child's needs (based on your answer to #1) could best be met?


Loran: 3. By the next best scenario, which would most probably be a single parent (mother or father) raising the child with the help of committed extended family.

Jersey Girl: You previously defined the optimum situation for a child as that of an intact two parent family in which the mother is primary (though not sole) caregiver and nurturer. In the case of the single parent raising the child with support from extended family, I would add the support of community as well. What are your thoughts about meeting the child's needs in the case of two working parents? Do you think it can be done and if so, how?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Loran,

If you choose to reply to the above, I will read it however, I'm not planning to continue this dialogue right now. I apologize for sending out an invitation for something I'm not going to participate in. If you reply, I'll pick it back up in a while.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Alright, Loran,

I changed my mind. I may not reply quickly. Here are the questions on the table:

Jersey Girl: 3. If the ideal situation is unavailble to the child, how do you think the child's needs (based on your answer to #1) could best be met?


Loran: 3. By the next best scenario, which would most probably be a single parent (mother or father) raising the child with the help of committed extended family.

Jersey Girl: You previously defined the optimum situation for a child as that of an intact two parent family in which the mother is primary (though not sole) caregiver and nurturer. In the case of the single parent raising the child with support from extended family, I would add the support of community as well. What are your thoughts about meeting the child's needs in the case of two working parents? Do you think it can be done and if so, how?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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