Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _Markk »

Analytics wrote:
Markk wrote:Your not hearing me...and I am not saying that in a bad thing, it is just the way it is.

When one is 14 to say 17 years old, and you turn to pot, and if you like it and you hang with that crowd...most often you will graduate to harder drugs. In the drug culture you have different cultures, those that like meth, those like heroin, those that like prescription drugs, and those that like things like LSD and Mushrooms. There are even those that like sniffing paints or thinners, even gas...and their are those that burn out on PCP (dust).

You can't put that in a theory or a structured reason why, like your sugar analogy. It is just the way it is in the drug culture...and the one common denominator is that pot is almost always the first drug that leads to that culture, which leads to addiction.

If you want an example, wine coolers, especially in the 70's and 80's were a gateway alcohol for hard core drinkers. Those that start out and get into the drinking scene general start with sweet tasting drinks..becasue alcohol at first taste like crap....today they have the lemonade and root beer types of drinks...most that drink them , don't become alcoholic's, but those with a weakness to addiction will jump to hard alcohol...it is similar with pot.

We have students instead of reaching their potential, they become stoners or worse.

My experience with pot has been different than yours. I haven't ever seen sombody use pot who wasn't a productive adult member of society. I rarely see homeless people. I don't associate one with the other.

But yes, the "drug culture" leads to addiction. I can see that. But the culture of getting powerful opiods from your doctor whenever your body hurts also leads to addiction. If you think marijuana should be illegal because it can lead to addiction, do you also think that opioids should be illegal because they can lead to addiction, too?


I think marijuana should be illegal because it makes youth that abuse it stupid and lazy...and crushes and r e t a r d s potential.

I believe opioids should only be prescribed...the same with pot. Do I understand that it would take the will of a country not willing to go that way...most definitely.

I have a addictive personality...I have to really watch it...LoL... I can eat a package of chips ahoy in one night. But...I was injured in a auto accident and developed a bulging disk in my neck. Long story short, I was prescribed an opioid, and I liked it (a lot),...I had to finally tell the doc no more and opted for surgery. But man they took the pain away, there is a place for them. I would bet there are folks here hooked on prescription drugs and might not know it.

To anyone that wants to listen...Drugs are fun and make you feel good, they really are. They also numb out problems... but only for a season...and for those that arn't strong enough, they destroy. You have to learn to hate them...which I do. I have seen them kill and destroy too many loved ones, and I honestly believe they are destroying our country to a very large degree.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Always Changing
_Emeritus
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:17 am

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _Always Changing »

My mother came from a LDS-influenced family. My father had dengue fever during WWII, and was intensely fearful of opioids. I was raised Catholic in a LDS-influenced geographical area.

In my twenties, I recreated. I was a miserable mess. Antidepressants later helped me manage. I do not drink, due to over twenty years in AA, although I am no longer active. I tried a few drinks in recent years, but did not like what it did to me.

In the past six months, I have been debilitated by chronic pain. I have a bottle of codeine cough syrup, and have used it only once; it is still nearly full. I have 12 other tools in my pain-management arsenal; none of those is an opioid. I cannot take NSAIDS because I had a stomach bleed at the beginning of this struggle. If medical marijuana were legal, I would add that. CBD is available, but it would require some doing.

One thing has strengthened me through this. I wear a leather jacket given to me by the family of a woman who died from an opioid overdose. If given the opportunity to protest over-prescription of opioids in real life, I would be there.
Problems with auto-correct:
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
_cacheman
_Emeritus
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:22 pm

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _cacheman »

Markk wrote: ....When one is 14 to say 17 years old, and you turn to pot, and if you like it and you hang with that crowd...most often you will graduate to harder drugs.....

....I think marijuana should be illegal because it makes youth that abuse it stupid and lazy...and crushes and r e t a r d s potential.....

........ You have to learn to hate them...which I do. I have seen them kill and destroy too many loved ones, and I honestly believe they are destroying our country to a very large degree.....


Hi Mark,

I wanted to respond to some of your last post.

Do you really believe teens that 'turn to pot' and like it most often graduate to harder drugs? I'm positive that you don't have data to back that up. Are you simply referring to what you've seen in your personal experience?

To the second point I pulled from your post...... It's been illegal for a long time now. Has that helped? Also..... should responsible, hard working, tax paying citizens have personal freedoms stripped away because some others may be irresponsible with their Cannabis consumption.

To the third point..... Have you learned to hate alcohol? I'm sure that you, like the rest of us have seen lives ruined and people killed due to the irresponsible use of alcohol. Of course we tried making alcohol illegal before. It didn't work out very well.... much like the war on drugs.

Many people use Cannabis responsibly. Many of them are successful and good people. It's really not different from those who unwind with a cold beer after a hard day's work (except that the dangers of alcohol are much worse). I know a number of professionals and business owners that use responsibly. Their use is incidental to who they are. The decades of forced discretion on the part of responsible users has helped maintain a distorted stereotype of Cannabis users.

I think that if you're proposing to take away personal freedoms from people (with the threat of jail times, property confiscation, loss of parental rights, job loss, etc.), you need better justification than you've provided.
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _Markk »

cacheman wrote:
Markk wrote: ....When one is 14 to say 17 years old, and you turn to pot, and if you like it and you hang with that crowd...most often you will graduate to harder drugs.....

....I think marijuana should be illegal because it makes youth that abuse it stupid and lazy...and crushes and r e t a r d s potential.....

........ You have to learn to hate them...which I do. I have seen them kill and destroy too many loved ones, and I honestly believe they are destroying our country to a very large degree.....


Hi Mark,

I wanted to respond to some of your last post.

Do you really believe teens that 'turn to pot' and like it most often graduate to harder drugs? I'm positive that you don't have data to back that up. Are you simply referring to what you've seen in your personal experience?

To the second point I pulled from your post...... It's been illegal for a long time now. Has that helped? Also..... should responsible, hard working, tax paying citizens have personal freedoms stripped away because some others may be irresponsible with their Cannabis consumption.

To the third point..... Have you learned to hate alcohol? I'm sure that you, like the rest of us have seen lives ruined and people killed due to the irresponsible use of alcohol. Of course we tried making alcohol illegal before. It didn't work out very well.... much like the war on drugs.

Many people use Cannabis responsibly. Many of them are successful and good people. It's really not different from those who unwind with a cold beer after a hard day's work (except that the dangers of alcohol are much worse). I know a number of professionals and business owners that use responsibly. Their use is incidental to who they are. The decades of forced discretion on the part of responsible users has helped maintain a distorted stereotype of Cannabis users.

I think that if you're proposing to take away personal freedoms from people (with the threat of jail times, property confiscation, loss of parental rights, job loss, etc.), you need better justification than you've provided.


Illegal? Give me a break. DO you think cops bother casual users? San Bernardino officers were told not to even give tickets in that the fine was less than the cost to process the paper work. Speed is illegal and they don't even arrest people for small amounts for pretty much the same reason.

If you don't believe me fine, but the drug problem is growing and pot is everywhere...but hey..no connection right?

Pot makes kids stupid, it makes them non productive and lazy. Why do you think it works for pain ind anxiety to those that might need it? It is a drug Cach. Kids make dumb decision on pot, and taking other drugs is one of them.

Also..... should responsible, hard working, tax paying citizens have personal freedoms stripped away because some others may be irresponsible with their Cannabis consumption.


If you think smoking a hallucinogenic drug is a freedom...then I would disagree with you. LSD , mushroom, and mescaline should be legal also.

To the third point..... Have you learned to hate alcohol? I'm sure that you, like the rest of us have seen lives ruined and people killed due to the irresponsible use of alcohol. Of course we tried making alcohol illegal before. It didn't work out very well.... much like the war on drugs.


I would agree to a ban on alcohol...but it would kill the economy...we are in the alcohol businessmen and our economy would take too big a hit. And actually except for big city crime...prohibition worked...do a study on it. That it did not work is a myth. No I do not hate it like I hate pot...but I know people that do.

We are now getting into the pot business...it is legal now...and as soon as the fed's give in give it ten or twenty years and we might see great pot commercials for the super bowl...Cheetos and Doritos stock options might be something to look into.

Do you smoke pot...do you want your kids and grand kids smoking it? After all it is a freedom, and maybe they will be responsible pot smokers. Do you think opioids are a freedom? What about heroin?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Doctor Steuss
_Emeritus
Posts: 4597
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:57 pm

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

To add to the conversation (which has been excellent – thank you everyone who has shared so many personal experiences), I wanted to share a study I found while internet spelunking.

This is one that was published in the American Medical Association’s journal, JAMA Internal Medicine.

Study Link.

Findings:
Three states (California, Oregon, and Washington) had medical cannabis laws effective prior to 1999. Ten states (Alaska, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Rhode Island, and Vermont) enacted medical cannabis laws between 1999 and 2010. States with medical cannabis laws had a 24.8% lower mean annual opioid overdose mortality rate (95% CI, −37.5% to −9.5%; P = .003) compared with states without medical cannabis laws. Examination of the association between medical cannabis laws and opioid analgesic overdose mortality in each year after implementation of the law showed that such laws were associated with a lower rate of overdose mortality that generally strengthened over time: year 1 (−19.9%; 95% CI, −30.6% to −7.7%; P = .002), year 2 (−25.2%; 95% CI, −40.6% to −5.9%; P = .01), year 3 (−23.6%; 95% CI, −41.1% to −1.0%; P = .04), year 4 (−20.2%; 95% CI, −33.6% to −4.0%; P = .02), year 5 (−33.7%; 95% CI, −50.9% to −10.4%; P = .008), and year 6 (−33.3%; 95% CI, −44.7% to −19.6%; P < .001). In secondary analyses, the findings remained similar.


There’s another one that was done by RAND corp. I can't find the full text anywhere that isn't behind a pay wall. But, here are two of the key findings.
**States with medical marijuana dispensaries experienced reductions in opioid-related overdoses.
**As states have become more stringent in regulating dispensaries, the protective value of medical marijuana laws generally has fallen.

Do Medical Marijuana Laws Reduce Addictions and Deaths Related to Pain Killers?
Published in: Journal of Health Economics Volume 58 (March 2018), Pages 29-42. doi: 10.1016/j.jhealeco.2017.12.007
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Always Changing
_Emeritus
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:17 am

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _Always Changing »

Another reason why I wouldn't turn to illegal marijuana to ease my pain is that it is unregulated. I wouldn't know what is in it. For all I know, it could be dosed with fentanyl or something else. Dangerous stuff, knowing that buying it would put me in contact with people who traffic in more dangerous drugs.

Thank you, Steuss.
Problems with auto-correct:
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
_cacheman
_Emeritus
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:22 pm

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _cacheman »

Markk wrote: Illegal? Give me a break. DO you think cops bother casual users? San Bernardino officers were told not to even give tickets in that the fine was less than the cost to process the paper work. Speed is illegal and they don't even arrest people for small amounts for pretty much the same reason.

It's statements like this that make me think your perspective is skewed by the environment you're in. I don't just think that casual users are bothered by law enforcement. I know it happens. I've personally witnessed it often. While casual users might be safe much of the time, there is always the real possibility of criminal charges and enforcement.

Markk wrote: If you think smoking a hallucinogenic drug is a freedom...then I would disagree with you. LSD , mushroom, and mescaline should be legal also.

Yes, I do think should be a freedom. Why do you think I shouldn't be free to put something into my own body? Now, if I consume a lot of Cannabis and then feel entitled to get behind the wheel endangering other people..... in that case, I should be subject to legal consequences. But responsible consumption at my own place of residence should not be illegal.

Markk wrote:Do you smoke pot...do you want your kids and grand kids smoking it? After all it is a freedom, and maybe they will be responsible pot smokers. Do you think opioids are a freedom? What about heroin?

Yes, I do. As mentioned before, I've used Cannabis daily for over two decades. I use small amounts before bed, and very occasionally around the campfire in the evening. The amount I use hasn't changed in many years. When I go on work trips or vacations, I typically go without. It's not a big part of who I am.... it's simply a tool in my toolbox. My wife and I taught our children to be responsible people. I've had many talks with them about the pros and cons, but in the end, they are free individuals. One of our children drinks socially, and the other smokes socially. Neither of them would feel entitled to get drunk or high and then drive a vehicle down a public road. Neither has ever been in trouble with the law, school, or their places of employment. They don't look or act like your stereotypical stoner, because, like many people, they are not one.

I use the same definition of freedom that you would find in a dictionary. So, yes.... forbidding someone from consuming heroin, alcohol, tide pods, green jello, etc., would be examples of limiting freedom. I believe that we can and often should limit the freedom of minors, and I believe that society should be free to make laws about actions that harm others. We have the right (even responsibility) to prevent or punish actions that harm others. For example.... if someone is neglecting their parental duties due to their heroin, alcohol, tide pods, green jello, etc. habits, then there should be consequences. Driving while under the influence, stealing to support a habit, substance abuse related violence, etc. should not be legal since they harm or put others in danger. Responsibility should be expected, and citizens should be trusted until they breach that trust. The nanny state drug war has caused more problems than it has solved.

-cacheman
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _Markk »

cacheman wrote:
Markk wrote: Illegal? Give me a break. DO you think cops bother casual users? San Bernardino officers were told not to even give tickets in that the fine was less than the cost to process the paper work. Speed is illegal and they don't even arrest people for small amounts for pretty much the same reason.

It's statements like this that make me think your perspective is skewed by the environment you're in. I don't just think that casual users are bothered by law enforcement. I know it happens. I've personally witnessed it often. While casual users might be safe much of the time, there is always the real possibility of criminal charges and enforcement.

Markk wrote: If you think smoking a hallucinogenic drug is a freedom...then I would disagree with you. LSD , mushroom, and mescaline should be legal also.

Yes, I do think should be a freedom. Why do you think I shouldn't be free to put something into my own body? Now, if I consume a lot of Cannabis and then feel entitled to get behind the wheel endangering other people..... in that case, I should be subject to legal consequences. But responsible consumption at my own place of residence should not be illegal.

Markk wrote:Do you smoke pot...do you want your kids and grand kids smoking it? After all it is a freedom, and maybe they will be responsible pot smokers. Do you think opioids are a freedom? What about heroin?

Yes, I do. As mentioned before, I've used Cannabis daily for over two decades. I use small amounts before bed, and very occasionally around the campfire in the evening. The amount I use hasn't changed in many years. When I go on work trips or vacations, I typically go without. It's not a big part of who I am.... it's simply a tool in my toolbox. My wife and I taught our children to be responsible people. I've had many talks with them about the pros and cons, but in the end, they are free individuals. One of our children drinks socially, and the other smokes socially. Neither of them would feel entitled to get drunk or high and then drive a vehicle down a public road. Neither has ever been in trouble with the law, school, or their places of employment. They don't look or act like your stereotypical stoner, because, like many people, they are not one.

I use the same definition of freedom that you would find in a dictionary. So, yes.... forbidding someone from consuming heroin, alcohol, tide pods, green jello, etc., would be examples of limiting freedom. I believe that we can and often should limit the freedom of minors, and I believe that society should be free to make laws about actions that harm others. We have the right (even responsibility) to prevent or punish actions that harm others. For example.... if someone is neglecting their parental duties due to their heroin, alcohol, tide pods, green jello, etc. habits, then there should be consequences. Driving while under the influence, stealing to support a habit, substance abuse related violence, etc. should not be legal since they harm or put others in danger. Responsibility should be expected, and citizens should be trusted until they breach that trust. The nanny state drug war has caused more problems than it has solved.

-cacheman
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_MeDotOrg
_Emeritus
Posts: 4761
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:29 pm

Re: Prescription Pain Killers: The Real Gateway Drug

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Studies link legal marijuana with fewer opioid prescriptions

The Washington Post wrote:NEW YORK — Can legalizing marijuana fight the problem of opioid addiction and fatal overdoses? Two new studies in the debate suggest it may.

Pot can relieve chronic pain in adults, so advocates for liberalizing marijuana laws have proposed it as a lower-risk alternative to opioids. But some research suggests marijuana may encourage opioid use, and so might make the epidemic worse.

The new studies don’t directly assess the effect of legalizing marijuana on opioid addiction and overdose deaths. Instead, they find evidence that legalization may reduce the prescribing of opioids. Over-prescribing is considered a key factor in the opioid epidemic.

Both studies were released Monday by the journal JAMA Internal Medicine.

One looked at trends in opioid prescribing under Medicaid, which covers low-income adults, between 2011 and 2016. It compared the states where marijuana laws took effect versus states without such laws. The comparison was done each quarter, so a given state without a law at one point could join the other category once a law kicked in.

Results showed that laws that let people use marijuana to treat specific medical conditions were associated with about a 6 percent lower rate of opioid prescribing for pain. That’s about 39 fewer prescriptions per 1,000 people using Medicaid.

And when states with such a law went on to also allow recreational marijuana use by adults, there was an additional drop averaging about 6 percent. That suggest the medical marijuana laws didn’t reach some people who could benefit from using marijuana instead of opioids, said Hefei Wen of the University of Kentucky in Lexington, one of the study authors.

The other study looked at opioid prescribing nationwide for people using Medicare, which covers people 65 years or older and those with disabilities. Every year from 2010 through 2015, researchers compared states with a medical marijuana law in effect to those without one. Fourteen states plus the District of Columbia had such a law from the beginning of that time; nine other states joined them during the years the study covered.

Researchers found that Medicare patients in states with marijuana dispensaries filled prescriptions for about 14 percent fewer daily doses of opioids than those in other states. Patients in states that only allowed them to grow pot at home showed about 7 percent fewer doses.

W. David Bradford, an economist at the University of Georgia in Athens who’s an author of the second study, said the results add to other findings that suggest to experts that marijuana is a viable alternative to opioids. The weight of that evidence is “now hard to ignore,” said Bradford, who said he thinks federal regulations should be changed to allow doctors to prescribe marijuana for pain treatment.

The two studies have some limitations, Dr. Kevin Hill of Harvard Medical School and Dr. Andrew Saxon of the University of Washington in Seattle wrote in an accompanying editorial.

For one thing, they don’t reveal whether individual patients actually reduced or avoided using opioids because of the increased access to marijuana. The findings in Medicaid and Medicare patients may not apply to other people. And the results may have been skewed by some characteristics of the state populations studied, they wrote.

They called for states and the federal government to pay for more studies to clarify the effect of marijuana use on opioid use, saying such research is needed for science to guide policy-making.


As I mentioned earlier, calling marijuana a gateway drug is primarily due to guilt by association with other illegal drugs. Imagine the reaction of the makers of Vicodin and Oxycontin if marijuana helps blow up their business.
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
- Will Durant
"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
Post Reply