Trump just recognized Venezuala's...

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_Themis
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Re: Trump just recognized Venezuala's...

Post by _Themis »

EAllusion wrote:
As far as interfering into other country's internal political affairs go, this is worse than anything Russia did with the US.


I would disagree. I don't see Trump getting so involved to change the outcome of an election as the Russians successfully did in getting Trump elected. Trump is a Putin success that keeps on giving to the Russians and doing a lot of damage to the US and it's interests.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Trump just recognized Venezuala's...

Post by _EAllusion »

Themis wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
As far as interfering into other country's internal political affairs go, this is worse than anything Russia did with the US.


I would disagree. I don't see Trump getting so involved to change the outcome of an election as the Russians successfully did in getting Trump elected. Trump is a Putin success that keeps on giving to the Russians and doing a lot of damage to the US and it's interests.


Trump is using diplomatic tools to back a soft coup in Venezuela while the country is undergoing a legitimacy crisis. The US has such a sterling record of backing coups in South America that I can see why it's a no-brainer to do another. I'm sure it'll all work out for the best, but this is a much greater escalation in interference in to domestic affairs than Russian espionage and online agitation on behalf of Trump.

It's really hard to know how much the online agitation helped Trump, but it's probably fair to say that it wasn't that big of a deal in the overall wash of political advocacy. It's easy to forget, but while hacking Democratic emails is bad, but it only became a 5-alarm fire in our election process because our domestic press sucks.
_Themis
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Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Trump just recognized Venezuala's...

Post by _Themis »

EAllusion wrote:Trump is using diplomatic tools to back a soft coup in Venezuela while the country is undergoing a legitimacy crisis. The US has such a sterling record of backing coups in South America that I can see why it's a no-brainer to do another. I'm sure it'll all work out for the best, but this is a much greater escalation in interference in to domestic affairs than Russian espionage and online agitation on behalf of Trump.

It's really hard to know how much the online agitation helped Trump, but it's probably fair to say that it wasn't that big of a deal in the overall wash of political advocacy. It's easy to forget, but while hacking Democratic emails is bad, but it only became a 5-alarm fire in our election process because our domestic press sucks.


I don't think they are even close. The Russians got very involved to get their desired candidate elected, and were successful in doing so. That is a much more hands on involvement. Even other countries are recognizing the opposition since it is well accepted the election was not legitimate.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Trump just recognized Venezuala's...

Post by _EAllusion »

What the US is doing is "getting very involved." It's not a throw-away comment. It's diplomatically backing an unelected opposition leader who declared himself President while leading an international alliance to do the same. The US's superpower standing makes it hard to create a one to one comparison, but it'd be like Nancy Pelosi declaring herself President and setting up a shadow Presidency. Russia would then lead the UN to recognize Pelosi as President and have nations interact with President Pelosi as the head of state. This would obviously fuel the domestic legitimacy crisis and undermine the authority of President Trump to function as the executive head of a sovereign state.

That's a much more serious type of interference than taking out ads on Facebook, paying for bots to troll political messaging, and hacking and releasing emails .

You can argue that Marduro is a quasi-dictator who has usurped Venezuelan democracy and not be wrong, but make no mistake this is the US backing a coup against him. If Russia tried to do the same to the US, nuclear war would be on the table.
_Chap
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Re: Trump just recognized Venezuala's...

Post by _Chap »

Donald Trump’s ship of fools is heading for the rocks in Venezuela

Does the Trump team inspire confidence in you that they know what they are doing?

The adults have left the room, or been thrown out of it.

Do you think this well end well?


Donald Trump’s implicit threat of direct US military intervention in Venezuela is a high-risk gamble that could backfire calamitously. By publicly and aggressively backing the opposition’s bid to supplant him, Trump has presented Nicolás Maduro, the country’s incumbent president, with a very personal, existential challenge.

If Maduro reacts, as he has in the past, by using violence to suppress his opponents, or if he arrests US diplomats who ignore his order to leave the country, Trump may face a daunting choice between rapid escalation, including possibly sending in US forces, and a humiliating climbdown.

It seems clear that Juan Guaidó, the opposition leader, has the backing of many if not most Venezuelans. Less evident, so far, is whether military chiefs and key army units will uphold his self-declared alternative presidency. Given the history of disastrous US interventions in Latin America, Maduro’s denunciation of a coup by the “gringo empire” carries considerable weight.

Then there is the added complication of strong Russian and Chinese support for the current regime. Moscow has condemned the attempted takeover. Maduro was feted in Beijing last autumn, where he was offered a financial bailout.

If the military stays broadly loyal to Maduro, Trump and his hawkish national security adviser, John Bolton, who has led the charge for regime change in Caracas, will have failed to meet the first, elementary requirement for successful coup-making: ensure the guys with the guns are on your side.

Maybe this is no surprise. Going off half-cock in crucial matters of foreign policy and international relations is a familiar characteristic of the Trump administration. Trump himself is demonstrably clueless about such matters. And after a wave of high-level sackings and resignations during his first two years in office, he badly lacks experienced, politically savvy and level-headed advisers. That dangerous weakness may be about to be exposed.

Much has been written about the so-called “adults in the room” who have supposedly restrained Trump’s worst instincts and puerile tantrums – or did so, at least, until they were fired. Less attention has been paid to the third-raters, chancers and nobodies who have replaced them in the most senior US government positions.

The fact Trump sought help to break the government shutdown stalemate from his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, a political greenhorn, showed the dearth of seasoned domestic policy talent in the White House.

Trump’s replacement foreign policy crew likewise shares a startling ignorance of the world beyond America. Their views and prejudices are likely to have seriously negative impacts during Trump’s remaining time in the White House. As one US commentator put it, “Lincoln had a team of rivals; Trump has a team of morons”.

The contention that Trump really has been reined in, until now, by wiser, more experienced advisers is itself questionable. For example, James Mattis, his former defence secretary, failed to prevent Trump’s serial assaults on Nato or his rash decision to withdraw US troops from Syria. To be fair, Mattis did stamp on some wilder Trump wheezes (those that we know about), such as his reported wish to assassinate Syria’s Bashar al-Assad.

Yet the Venezuela intervention suggests similar or worse decision-making may now be in the offing as an ever angrier, more volatile Trump, besieged by a hostile Congress and noisy talk of impeachment, furtively schemes and plots to salvage a second term.

The more Trump is tempted to lash out, make a splash, or opportunistically create a diversion to wrest back control of the agenda – which is how he may view Venezuela – the more calm, sensible advice will be required. Yet this is what is signally lacking in an administration peopled not by the “best and the brightest” – David Halberstam’s famous, semi-ironic term for John F Kennedy’s White House team – but by the worst and the dumbest with no reputation to lose.

Bolton is the scariest of the bunch – a terrier-like zealot who seizes on an issue and worries it to death, impervious to facts or reason. He acted thus over Iraq, urging George W Bush to invade on what wiser heads knew were bogus grounds.

Bolton is repeating the mistake over Iran, where he has previously advocated forcible regime change regardless of the consequences. Once again, a supposed WMD threat is being exaggerated and conflated with insincere concerns about democracy and human rights.

Bolton’s Iran obsession produced a massive overreaction to two minor incidents involving Tehran-backed militias in Iraq last autumn, when the National Security Council demanded the Pentagon provide immediate options for military strikes on Iran. “People were shocked. It was mind-boggling how cavalier they were,” a senior official said.

Hopes that diplomacy might curb reckless White House tendencies have evaporated under the sacked Rex Tillerson’s state department successor, Mike Pompeo. Recent speeches by the hawkish former CIA director in Brussels and Cairo exhibited slavish subservience to his master’s voice, echoing Trump’s tunnel-vision nationalism and simplistic division of the world into friends and foes.

Pompeo’s statement on Wednesday evening instructing US diplomats in Caracas to ignore Maduro’s order to leave the country was especially rash. The diplomats could become virtual hostages in any prolonged internal power struggle.

Those searching for more able leadership elsewhere in the higher echelons of Trump-land will search in vain. The Pentagon, the world’s largest, nuclear-armed, war-fighting machine, is currently run by an obscure former Boeing executive, Patrick Shanahan, who, in contrast to Mattis, has zero military or policymaking experience. Not a good situation when a crisis such as Venezuela breaks.

Trump’s incoming attorney-general, William Barr, seems to think his legal duty is to unquestioningly do whatever Trump tells him. Trump’s press secretary, Sarah Sanders, hates the press. And his White House chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, is a temp who once described his new boss as a “terrible human being”.

Even if Trump and his ship of fools and knaves do not start a war in Venezuela, they could just as easily trigger new conflicts in the Middle East or with China, without even meaning to. And Venezuela’s Juan Guaidó should be aware – these people do not make reliable allies. With Trump’s “team of morons” in charge, there is no safety net, no room for error – and no telling what happens next.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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