Schemata and Schema and ... bears (oh my)!

[_Lemmie]

I don't think that many of us, particularly those of us from a different generation, ever once consciously or intentionally considered our own psychology or the psychology of others* or how our brain functions. It's so damned complex that it takes quite a vast sea of theorists and researchers to come up with at least some of the answers

There I'll have to disagree with you. The only way to get out from under so much of the LDS church conditioning was to do just that, and pretty much every person I know who got out went through some version of this psychological process.

I'm mainly referring to the book that RI brought into the discussion on how the brain functions.

ok. I'm just saying that in getting out from under cult-like conditioning, it's pretty much a required step that one " consciously or intentionally consider[] our own psychology or the psychology of others* or how our brain functions." I can't imagine how difficult it would be to leave without going through at least a rudimentary part of that process. This book has some interesting points to contribute.

[_Jersey Girl]

ok. I'm just saying that in getting out from under cult-like conditioning, it's pretty much a required step that one " consciously or intentionally consider[] our own psychology or the psychology of others* or how our brain functions." I can't imagine how difficult it would be to leave without going through at least a rudimentary part of that process. This book has some interesting points to contribute.

Yes, that was sloppily worded on my part. When I'm posting, the board hardly ever has my full attention. In any case, I think I listed some of the hard issues that a LDS is faced with not the least of which is the breaking down of essentially one's entire view of the world and their place in it, and also the reactions of family. That sort of thing. I haven't known too many folks for whom the task was less than monumental.

Briefly though, what I was trying to say is that I don't think anyone going through that all encompassing process or similar process, where one's world is rocked to the core is spending time wondering what's going on in their cerebral cortex.

But...becoming aware of how we think , why we think or fail to think about things even years or decades after the a major conflict/adjustment has been mostly resolved (with some amount of regret, I am sure) does help to ease the pressure we feel about it all.

I cannot help myself going back to the KR stage model for grief. I know from too much first hand experience how we DON'T go through the stages and be done with it. We loop through those stages perhaps for a life time as we continue to process grief.

[_Lemmie]

Briefly though, what I was trying to say is that I don't think anyone going through that all encompassing process or similar process, where one's world is rocked to the core is spending time wondering what's going on in their cerebral cortex.

Yes, I got your point the first time, and I'm just saying that I disagree.

"Wondering what's going in in [my] cerebral cortex" was a crucial part of therapy for me after leaving the Mormon church, and was standard for pretty much everyone I've spoken to about the therapeutic process.

[_Res Ipsa]

I can only speak for my own case, but I don’t recall thinking about what was happening in terms of brain function. I was so preoccupied with “what do I do now” that I had little brain power for anything else. I felt extremely disoriented — like my life wasn’t grounded in anything. It wasn’t until years later, when I stumbled into former Mormons online, that I began to understand exactly what my brain had experienced.

I don’t regret growing up in the church. It is an integral part of who I am, and I like who I am. But I got out early, with very little in the way of sunk costs, so I think I understand why others feel differently.

[_Jersey Girl]

Briefly though, what I was trying to say is that I don't think anyone going through that all encompassing process or similar process, where one's world is rocked to the core is spending time wondering what's going on in their cerebral cortex.

Yes, I got your point the first time, and I'm just saying that I disagree.

"Wondering what's going in in [my] cerebral cortex" was a crucial part of therapy for me after leaving the Mormon church, and was standard for pretty much everyone I've spoken to about the therapeutic process.

In the above you are talking about therapy after leaving the church. I took RI to be discussing the process prior to leaving the church.

Can you offer a brief non-invasive example?

I haven't had the experience of leaving the LDS church but I have definitely communicated with LDS who were in a crisis state on account of their discoveries. In that phase, their thoughts were more to the effect...

I don't know what I'm going to do! What do I do? I don't know if I can keep this to myself. What is my spouse going to think? Will she leave me? Can I tell my parents about this? Will they disown me? Will I ever see my kids again? I'm so messed up right now, I've started drinking. Should I tell my Bishop what I found out? Does my Bishop already know? Is he in on the charade? I don't know who to trust with this! Many of my business associates are Mormon. I stand to lose EVERYTHING!

I guess how I want to describe it is that the folks I've known were caught up in the moment as they were taking in information when their "shelf" broke and not wondering too much yet about how "stupid" (their words) they were to believe Joseph Smith Jr. and were dwelling not only on the can of worms that had been opened up but the reaction of others and specific losses to them should they disclose what they learned.

I can see that some of them knew something about compartmentalization, but I've never communicated with anyone who was thinking much about their brain function while it was happening to them.

Best analogy I can think of at the moment. Someone is in a motor vehicle accident where they sustained injuries and were treated for shock. Their focus is on the treatment and healing of said injuries (literally putting one foot in front of the other), overcoming physical and psychological trauma. Then later, they think about how it happened to them when psychological rehabilitation becomes part of the process.

[_Jersey Girl]

I can only speak for my own case, but I don’t recall thinking about what was happening in terms of brain function. I was so preoccupied with “what do I do now” that I had little brain power for anything else. I felt extremely disoriented — like my life wasn’t grounded in anything. It wasn’t until years later, when I stumbled into former Mormons online, that I began to understand exactly what my brain had experienced.

Except for digging up the Piaget ref., I was nearing the end of my interest here because murder and covert narcissists are fast taking over my attention. My current thought though, is that it might be useful to bring Fowler's stage model into the thread.

I don’t regret growing up in the church. It is an integral part of who I am, and I like who I am. But I got out early, with very little in the way of sunk costs, so I think I understand why others feel differently.

I'm happy that you like who you are because I see you as someone who has got their collective stuff together. I think it's important to note (and you just did) that people who exit the church in disbelief, do so at different stages in their lives. When I see someone in their 40's or 50's (which is mainly the age range of folks I've known and discussed at length with) who came online searching (the Internet has surely expedited the process) or who had already begun searching and came to the conclusion that the church isn't what they believed it to be, then you've got someone who is often dealing with intense anger and resentment, and they are unsure as to what to do with their discoveries because the cost by now is greater than it might have been when they were much younger. They've held leadership positions, their adult children are getting married, they don't know which way to turn. Their sense of belonging is threatened to the point where they know they can lose their families and their livelihoods.

Not that there isn't some version of that to be considered at various ages and stages. I think you were fortunate that you put pieces together at a relatively early age. If I have got the timing right, your brain wasn't even fully matured when that took place so it makes it all the more impressive.

[_Jersey Girl]

I cannot lay hands on my psych books to save my life right now. Too much moving around over here, don't even get me started. I managed to yank out one of my development texts. I do own a book specifically on Piaget alone but good luck locating that.

The Young Child (Development from Prebirth Through Age Eight)
Second edition. Janet K. Black and Margaret B. Pucket. 1996.

From Cognitive Theory, Pages 12 and 13.

Piaget proposed that children order their interactions with the environment and then adopt to or change this order if they have new insights or information. The ordering of thought was termed schemata. Assimilation represents the child's attempts to fit new ideas and concepts into existing schemata. Accommodation is the change in schemata that a child makes as a result of new information. As children grow older and have more experiences with their environment, their equilibrium, or balance in thinking is often disturbed. Piaget says that this dissatisfaction or disequilibrium with present ideas motivates the child to accommodate new information and change the schemata.

Definitions of each.

schemata: mental concepts or categories, plural for schema. (Piaget)

assimilation: the process of incorporating new motor or conceptual learning into the schemata. (Piaget)

accommodation: the cognitive process by which patterns of thought (schemata) and related behaviors are modified to conform to new information or experience. (Piaget)

equilibrium: the process of establishing a balance in thinking. (Piaget)

disequilibrium: the imbalance in thinking that leads the child to assimilate or accommodate. (Piaget)

Then the text moves directly into Vygotsky. I've got no less then 10 primary sources listed here for Piaget alone. I honestly don't have time to reference them.

(The wiki was correct and so were you! )

I think we can relate the above process to adults as well. Though Piaget mainly focused on young children, his stage model does go through to formal ops in adulthood. The only distinction I might make is that our intellectual abilities play a major role in how we evaluate what we take in. I think the process is near identical to what we've been talking about in terms of cog dis, stages of grief, etc.

[_Lemmie]

I can see that some of them knew something about compartmentalization, but I've never communicated with anyone who was thinking much about their brain function while it was happening to them.

I think I came from a more fundamentalist background, where the very first thing that started me out of the church was realizing that my brain function was damaged by the cult-like aspects. Trying to fix my brain was paramount. The process started there.

Can you offer a brief non-invasive example?

No. Not here.