Alexander Vindman: Coming forward ended my career. I still believe doing what?????s right matters.

[Guest]

delete duped post

[_Gunnar]

A long time ago, I thought of the two words that perfectly differentiate the Army from the Marines: "More cerebral." In the Army, the focus isn't on deriving a sense of satisfaction over wielding unethical power over one's underlings; the focus is on accomplishing the mission, whatever it might be. They get the job done; they aren't laser-like focused on ensuring that their juniors are as miserable as possible in the process.

This discussion reminds me of when I was in the Air Force, stationed at Kunsan Air Base in Korea. I worked in the F4E simulator section. There were also some Marines assigned to the base, with whom I never had any contact, but according to my fellow Air Force guys, the Marines tended to be pretty rowdy and aggressive and prone to asserting their dominance and starting fights with the Air Force guys. We had one guy in our shop, who because of his physical size and strength was given the nickname "Mongo." He was a quiet, easy going and competent guy, well liked by all of us. He loved the popular off base recreational spots and bars often frequented by off duty U.S. Military types, including, of course, the Marines. But one day, after a weekend, he showed up at work with a cut and bruise on his head. When we asked what happened to him, he casually remarked, "Some Marine attacked me with a 2 x 4." Bad mistake for that poor Marine! He was still in the hospital recovering from Mongo's retaliation!

[_honorentheos]

Shades, your formulation, as I understand it:

career Army, Jump Wings, Ranger Tab, combat, Purple Heart = snowflake

No. My formulation: "I made the difficult decision to retire because a campaign of bullying, intimidation and retaliation by President Trump and his allies forever limited the progression of my military career" = snowflake.* Which, I have no problem admitting, is utterly out of character from what you'd otherwise expect from "career Army, Jump Wings, Ranger Tab, combat, Purple Heart."

*I hereby give you permission to begin understanding it this way. You know, just like I originally wrote to begin with.

I've lost patience with you, Shades.

"...forever limited the progression of my military career."

Learn to read. Both what he said and what you've been told about the process. It wasn't about the intimidating and bullying. It was about his eligibility for promotion being cut off. Man you are dense.

[_honorentheos]

Marines are neurotically rank-conscious, to the point that having one extra stripe causes less evolved people to assume that they're naturally "better" than someone with one fewer stripe. And the power that that environment confers is very, very intoxicating to those less distant from their Neanderthal cousins.

Said unironically in the context of this thread.

Yes, I realize that this post will provide plenty of grist for Morley and honorentheos to pounce upon, but I wanted to answer your question with the proper amount of clarity and leave NO room for misunderstanding.

The issue here isn't with your service, Shades. It's that you seem to be stubbornly adhereing to an early impression of Vindman's reason for retiring derived from an emotion-based response to it that is atleast partially built on your personal experience. You seem to think it reduces down to his being unwilling to stick out another year or so until after the election.

That's not a well informed view, but instead derived from emotions and the poor reasoning that comes from overlaying ones own experience onto others rather than seeking to put oneself in the proper place to understand through fact gathering and active bias management.

So this allows you to make your leaving the Marines a virtue and his retiring a personal weakness. You were too smart for the system, he was a snowflake who couldn't endure another year of amateur-grade bullying.

After having the underlying context brought to your attention, you refused to step back and see your emotions-based reaction for what it was, instead chosing to make reason the slave of the passions and confabulate explanations for why you were right to take the position you did. Because that's how ignorant thinking works.

[_Morley]

*I hereby give you permission to begin understanding it this way. You know, just like I originally wrote to begin with.

If only your elaboration and subsequent addenda to your assertion gave the same gracious permission.

[Guest]

del

[_Morley]

*I hereby give you permission to begin understanding it this way. You know, just like I originally wrote to begin with.

Nope. What you originally suggested was that if Vindman had been tough like a Marine, instead of being a pansy Army officer, he'd have stayed.

Pfft. If he'd been an enlisted Marine, he'd have spent his entire 21 years, six months, and 10 days of active military service enduring nothing BUT a campaign of bullying, intimidation, and retaliation by superiors. I'm calling "snowflake" on this guy.

And you know what you're talking about. Because you were in the Marine Reserve for a few years and later the Army Reserve for a couple of years.

[_Morley]

Learn to read. Both what he said and what you've been told about the process. It wasn't about the intimidating and bullying. It was about his eligibility for promotion being cut off.

[_Some Schmo]

I'd love to know if Shades has the nads to testify in an impeachment hearing against his commander in chief knowing full well a third of the country have lost their fu-cking minds, and would start spreading the kind of nonsense about him Vindman has endured.

Somehow, I highly doubt it. In which case, I call "snowflake."

If he claims he would, I would seriously question his integrity, or at the very least, accuse him of talking big without having to live up to the challenge.

[_Temp. Admin.]

"Some Marine attacked me with a 2 x 4." Bad mistake for that poor Marine! He was still in the hospital recovering from Mongo's retaliation!

GOOD! I'm glad Mongo put that idiot in his place.

I've lost patience with you, Shades.

"...forever limited the progression of my military career."

Learn to read. Both what he said and what you've been told about the process. It wasn't about the intimidating and bullying.

But he made it a point to add that part, so that was in the mix to some percent or other, whether we like it or not.

It was about his eligibility for promotion being cut off.

That's fine, too. My original point was that staying a lieutenant colonel in the Army forever is still an incredibly sweet deal, promotion or no promotion. It was only later that I learned that A) he had to promote or would be forced out, and B) due to an incredibly stupid system, his inability to promote would cause many others to be unable to promote too, since a long time ago some idiot set it up to be a group effort.

Had Lt. Col. Vindman LED with that information, my original post would've been entirely different. In fact, I wouldn't have commented at all.

Man you are dense.

And there you go, purposefully antagonizing me again. Way to advance the discussion.

The issue here isn't with your service, Shades. It's that you seem to be stubbornly adhereing to an early impression of Vindman's reason for retiring derived from an emotion-based response to it that is atleast partially built on your personal experience.

No, you keep forcing me to defend my original post when I clearly and unambiguously stated, repeatedly, that said original post has been largely obviated by further input from you. Rather than choosing to paint a pretty picture of mom, the flag, and apple pie, that input should've just come from him in the first place. We could've entirely avoided this whole ordeal.

You seem to think it reduces down to his being unwilling to stick out another year or so until after the election.

That's sure what it looked like at first glance, wouldn't you agree? As a matter of fact, that's still what it looks like, but maybe he doesn't want to force all the others to wait until the election. Good for him, then.

That's not a well informed view, but instead derived from emotions and the poor reasoning that comes from overlaying ones own experience onto others rather than seeking to put oneself in the proper place to understand through fact gathering and active bias management.

In that case, thank you for informing my view.

So this allows you to make your leaving the Marines a virtue and his retiring a personal weakness. You were too smart for the system, he was a snowflake who couldn't endure another year of amateur-grade bullying.

All other things being equal, and if one only goes by what he actually, physically typed, is that not the way it originally came across?

After having the underlying context brought to your attention, you refused to step back and see your emotions-based reaction for what it was, instead chosing to make reason the slave of the passions and confabulate explanations for why you were right to take the position you did. Because that's how ignorant thinking works.

Thanks for the education.

And you know what you're talking about. Because you were in the Marine Reserve for a few years and later the Army Reserve for a couple of years.

Clearly you know what you're talking about more than I do, so please share with us your experience in the military and contrast it to mine.

I'd love to know if Shades has the nads to testify in an impeachment hearing against his commander in chief knowing full well a third of the country have lost their fu-cking minds, and would start spreading the kind of nonsense about him Vindman has endured.

Somehow, I highly doubt it. In which case, I call "snowflake."

If he claims he would, I would seriously question his integrity, or at the very least, accuse him of talking big without having to live up to the challenge.

In other words, heads you win, tails I lose?