NATO's "Aggression" against Russia

[Kishkumen]

Russia justifies its imperial aggression against Ukraine on the basis of a verbal promise not to extend NATO's power eastward. The numerous former Eastern Bloc countries that have joined NATO are thus held up as examples of NATO's violation of the promise. What can Russia do, right? Let's review some simple facts.

1. The Soviet Union dissolved as a sovereign state in December of 1991. Its empire was effectively at an end, and many former Soviet countries declared their independence before the formal dissolution of the Soviet Union.
2. Russia aggressively sought to maintain its empire before the formal dissolution of the empire, and the conflicts involved in that "clawing back" have never resolved except in one of two ways: either the nation joins NATO or becomes a sitting duck for Russian invasion.
3. Moldova declared its independence from Russia in August 1991. Ethnic Russians of the Transnistria region desire independence from Moldova, and the Russian Army aids the separatists. Their claim to justify this assistance: the Moldovans, they say, are fascists. Sound familiar?
4. Soviet military units helped Ossetian separatists in the 1991-1992 South Ossetia War, showing its willingness to use independence movements to claw back parts of its fragmenting empire. Russia later launched a full-scale invasion of Georgia in August of 2008.
5. Chechnya made its first moves to obtain independence in 1991 and declared full independence from Russia in 1993. A civil war in Chechnya ensued, and Russia started bombing Grozny December 1, 1994. On December 11 they launched a three-pronged attack towards Grozny. The first war lasted until 1996, and a second war was fought from 1999-2000.
6. During these conflicts designed to maintain control over former Soviet territories, other former Soviet countries joined NATO so that they would not become Russia's next imperial prey.
7. Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014.
8. Russia invaded Ukraine again in November 05 2022, claiming, as it did in Moldova, that it was fighting fascism.

Given this series of events, I don't see why any Americans have sympathy for Russia. The Soviet Empire failed, and Russia was forced to give up the independent nations that it had invaded, occupied, and controlled for half a century or more. But those nations were not Russia. Not Russian. Their loss of those countries is nothing to lament. Rather, as people who believe in freedom and democracy, we should rejoice in the independence of these people and support it. NATO is a defensive alliance. Russia has continued to invade former Soviet countries in an attempt to get its empire back. Any one of these countries has the right to seek NATO membership to prevent a predatory empire from conquering them.

Don't fall for Russian propaganda. We have no reason to sympathize with Russia or accept its crazy justifications that amount to: "I stole it fair and square, and I want it back."

[Some Schmo]

Part of the problem is that you've got the idiot Trump sycophants parroting Russian propaganda. Putin has infiltrated American culture. The right wing of this country is filled with contradictory, irrational, self-defeating nonsense.

[Kishkumen]

Part of the problem is that you've got the idiot Trump sycophants parroting Russian propaganda. Putin has infiltrated American culture. The right wing of this country is filled with contradictory, irrational, self-defeating nonsense.

I agree with you, Schmo. It is legit weird. Suddenly, all of these Republicans are lining up to lick the boots of a Russian autocrat because he pretends to be Christian. These suckers are real cheap dates. Putin must pinch himself every morning just to convince himself he's not dreaming this.

[drumdude]

There are a few subtle nuances here, I think.

The US missed a critical opportunity in the early 1990's to implement a Marshall Plan for Russia. Just as the Marshall Plan had rebuilt Germany and Japan instead of once again driving them into the ground, we could have rebuilt the former USSR.

However, the US government - particularly the military - was too invested in keeping the Cold War industrial military complex going. The hardliners won, and post-USSR Russia was not embraced. This meant that instead of the US remaking the USSR in our image, as we had done with Germany and Japan, Russia was left to be rebuilt by a KGB leader.

Putin saw how Russia was treated and has causus belli amongst his citizens and supporters to act exactly as he has acted. Moving forward to 2014 and 2021 - does this give Russia the moral high ground? Absolutely not. But you cannot ignore the US' negligence in creating the conditions for a strong man to take over Russia.

So now we have a Russia who is militarily weak, thanks to the US hardliners keeping the Cold War going, but who has adapted to focus on a battleground they can win - information warfare. We're seeing the direct fallout of that now with so many Americans affected by that campaign of disinformation.

[Kishkumen]

There are a few subtle nuances here, I think.

The US missed a critical opportunity in the early 1990's to implement a Marshall Plan for Russia. Just as the Marshall Plan had rebuilt Germany and Japan instead of once again driving them into the ground, we could have rebuilt the former USSR.

Ah, OK. So your argument for our fault in all of this is that we did not fix Russia.

Putin saw how Russia was treated and has causus belli amongst his citizens and supporters to act exactly as he has acted. Moving forward to 2014 and 2021 - does this give Russia the moral high ground? Absolutely not. But you cannot ignore the US' negligence in creating the conditions for a strong man to take over Russia.

So now we have a Russia who is militarily weak, thanks to the US hardliners keeping the Cold War going, but who has adapted to focus on a battleground they can win - information warfare. We're seeing the direct fallout of that now with so many Americans affected by that campaign of disinformation.

Putin was Prime Minister to Boris Yeltsin. I don't think it is the US's fault he is there. It is not clear to me that the former Soviet Union ever considered braking on its imperialism. Its behaviors up to the present are all linked directly to its imperial efforts in the 1990s. And if they are militarily weak, I am not sure why we should view that as a bad thing. I wish they were militarily weaker.

[drumdude]

There are a few subtle nuances here, I think.

The US missed a critical opportunity in the early 1990's to implement a Marshall Plan for Russia. Just as the Marshall Plan had rebuilt Germany and Japan instead of once again driving them into the ground, we could have rebuilt the former USSR.

Ah, OK. So your argument for our fault in all of this is that we did not fix Russia.

Putin saw how Russia was treated and has causus belli amongst his citizens and supporters to act exactly as he has acted. Moving forward to 2014 and 2021 - does this give Russia the moral high ground? Absolutely not. But you cannot ignore the US' negligence in creating the conditions for a strong man to take over Russia.

So now we have a Russia who is militarily weak, thanks to the US hardliners keeping the Cold War going, but who has adapted to focus on a battleground they can win - information warfare. We're seeing the direct fallout of that now with so many Americans affected by that campaign of disinformation.

Putin was Prime Minister to Boris Yeltsin. I don't think it is the US's fault he is there. It is not clear to me that the former Soviet Union ever considered braking on its imperialism. Its behaviors up to the present are all linked directly to its imperial efforts in the 1990s. And if they are militarily weak, I am not sure why we should view that as a bad thing. I wish they were militarily weaker.

I say that we missed an opportunity. By repairing Germany and Japan, we did take responsibility for their future and their success. Japanese culture changed essentially overnight once they started seeing the benefits of aligning with the US and its allies.

Putin and Russia are responsible for what they’ve done. But we could have approached the collapse of the USSR much differently. We should have exerted influence, especially over the culture of Russians.

If Russia weren’t so militarily weak, I would argue that they wouldn’t have invested so heavily in asymmetric information warfare. They are essentially doing online what the Iraq insurgency did to our military. Except the damage isn’t being done to soldiers, it’s being done to Americans’ minds.

I think it will take generations to unpack how Russia, China, and others have exploited social media to attack the US and influence our opinions. You asked why Americans are falling for Trump - my hypothesis is that this is the reason.

Americans didn’t wake up one day and support Trump and Putin, they’ve been slowly and deliberately programmed by our enemies over the last 15 years.

[Kishkumen]

I say that we missed an opportunity. By repairing Germany and Japan, we did take responsibility for their future and their success. Japanese culture changed essentially overnight once they started seeing the benefits of aligning with the US and its allies.

I see what you are saying. Perhaps it is the fact that we did not invade Russia and destroy their infrastructure that caused this failure of imagination. I don't know enough about this history to say, which is sad because I lived through it. So poor is the quality of our national discourse and news media.

Putin and Russia are responsible for what they’ve done. But we could have approached the collapse of the USSR much differently. We should have exerted influence, especially over the culture of Russians.

Maybe. They have been pretty recalcitrant and consistent in pursuing submission to, and suffering under, the latest homegrown tyrant.

If Russia weren’t so militarily weak, I would argue that they wouldn’t have invested so heavily in asymmetric information warfare. They are essentially doing online what the Iraq insurgency did to our military. Except the damage isn’t being done to soldiers, it’s being done to Americans’ minds.

I think it will take generations to unpack how Russia, China, and others have exploited social media to attack the US and influence our opinions. You asked why Americans are falling for Trump - my hypothesis is that this is the reason.

If Communism has produced anything, it is a booming industry in expert misinformation services. The GOP and Fox News felt left out and had to join the fun.