Marines, Ex-Marines here?

[_barrelomonkeys]

WOW!! That's for real!!!??? WHY?? It is beyond my understanding that such demeaning, degrading psyche rape would be considered necessary AND acceptable in the "land-of-the-free"??? Might such an attitude--destruction of individualism to serve the Institution without question, or objection, in fact root the the problem of corruption and survival at all costs of self-righteous rule and dominion??

Wonder IF all nations trained their military forces according to the same principle of dehumanization?

Thanks for the posts. Gotta really think this one through... How would/will higher education effect that tradition? Opinions?? Roger

What do you mean by this? That those with less education are more susceptible to conditioning by the armed forces?

I would think that the not asking questions is a necessary aspect of creating a soldier. That so many leave the armed forces as bright, inquisitive young men (I see them on campus, and they're just busting at the seams to learn) means that the military is doing something right! They certainly seem to have a lot of pride.

[_Roger Morrison]

They tear down before they build up. I had a brother who went in as a longhaired grunge rocker, and came back a completely different person.

He didn't know whether to keep his hat on when we ate at a picnic table at the park. he couldent remember what to do because oyu take your hat off to eat, but are supposed to leave it on when outside.

Its to instill the necessity of following orders, you can't have questioning in the combat field.

Thanks Gaz, Unfortunately "tearing-down" is often destroy-and-replace. Not strengthen. In my observations, most "...longhaired...rockers...'" grow out of "that" naturally??? "COMPLETELY different"???Sounds as if for the worse? Battle fatigue/shell-shock??

True, it seems built on the premise of breaking in horses... "Ya gotta teach 'em who's da Boss!!" Many yester-year parents worked with the same cowboy mentality. As some still do. Seems that remains the philosophy of many cowboy, macho type leaders, of most nations. And, other institutions as well??? Warm regards, Roger (What's with yer new avitar? :-)

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks Doc, i'll inject in italics... not intending to be insensitive to 'patriotism'...

WOW!! That's for real!!!??? WHY??

Take a look at the fighting quality of the average Marine compared to the average soldier of any other nation in the world. Then you can answer your own question.

RM: Very subjective assertion. Having talked to Canadian Vets of WWII & Korea, i heard a lot to the contrary. Their praise seemed to go to the Brits. They do agree the U.S. forces eat better, and are well equiped. But one-on-one they do 'fight' as well... Subjective, i admit, from another's experience.

It is beyond my understanding that such demeaning, degrading psyche rape would be considered necessary AND acceptable in the "land-of-the-free"???

You can't argue with results. RM: Not with someone with prejudiced mind set...

Might such an attitude--destruction of individualism to serve the Institution without question, or objection, in fact root the the problem of corruption and survival at all costs of self-righteous rule and dominion??

Care to rephrase that in English for us? RM: Yeah, a bit garbled... OK, it seems that institutionalism requires (demands:-) obedience/conformity to hiearchial 'rules'. "Individualism" must be modified/domesticated to serve the 'Top' from which "all-blessings-flow", supposedly... Historically, "survival" efforts (folowing "civilization") were/are directed to preserve the ruling/power level of Empires at the cost of thousands to millions of the lower rank/masses.

One of the unfortunate, and common, characteristics of leaders is "self righteousness"--they cannot admit to fallability. The better they are at convincing the lower rungs the longer they remain to enjoy THEIR life on the top... Blah, Blah, Blah... Did i make it better or worser :-)

Wonder IF all nations trained their military forces according to the same principle of dehumanization?

Can't say, since I've never been in anyone else's military. RM: Me neither. Still wondering.

Thanks for the posts. Gotta really think this one through... How would/will higher education effect that tradition? Opinions?? Roger

The higher educated ones (officers) are the selfsame ones ensuring the tradition continues.

It seems so. Which means what? Complete indoctrination? OTOH, i sense modification of past-practice. I doubt it can be otherwise in a thinking and feeling society. Maybe not an easy thing as there are always the die-hards...

Personal experience: I have a military daughter, Captain. A graduate of Canada's Royal Millitary College, that she entered in the '80s. At that time they were rousted from sleep by blasting HARD-ROCK, full blast, through the sound system. Not so now. Too harsh and damaging to their hearing. Progress!? Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

(What's with yer new avitar? :-)

Just thought I needed a change, I'm getting mixed reviews. I like the guy, some find him creepy. My favorite response has been that "he seems to be judging you the way hes looking at you". For that response alone I thought to keep him.

My brother came out of the marines boot camop a far better person than when he went in. He entered a tad directionless and rebellious and came out goal oriented and strong. Hes still in as an air traffic controler, should be going for a third round in Iraq here shortly. Hes married and lives in North Carolina.

[_Roger Morrison]

Gaz, nice that your brother's story has a happy ending. I too am aware of many such. OTOH, i think we both know of others that are sad... I sort-of like your new-look... Experienced, battle scarred, a bit synical, to be taken seriously but not frightening--to the initiated :-) Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

sort-of like your new-look... Experienced, battle scarred, a bit synical, to be taken seriously but not frightening--to the initiated :-) Warm regards, Roger

Exactly! LOL

[_Roger Morrison]

WOW!! That's for real!!!??? WHY?? It is beyond my understanding that such demeaning, degrading psyche rape would be considered necessary AND acceptable in the "land-of-the-free"??? Might such an attitude--destruction of individualism to serve the Institution without question, or objection, in fact root the the problem of corruption and survival at all costs of self-righteous rule and dominion??

Wonder IF all nations trained their military forces according to the same principle of dehumanization?

Thanks for the posts. Gotta really think this one through... How would/will higher education effect that tradition? Opinions?? Roger

What do you mean by this? That those with less education are more susceptible to conditioning by the armed forces?

I would think that the not asking questions is a necessary aspect of creating a soldier. That so many leave the armed forces as bright, inquisitive young men (I see them on campus, and they're just busting at the seams to learn) means that the military is doing something right! They certainly seem to have a lot of pride.

Hi Barrelo... "... more susceptible...?" in some ways yes. In general, "Ranks" come from a higher social tier, than do the "Files". Often (too) masses have not had the best offered to them on several fronts--schooling, family/community nurturing. Most come from other than institutions of higher-learning.

Quite likely why the brighter come out of the military with more confidence and aspirations than they enlisted/drafted with. No question, "a great thing." Whether that justifies National Militaries through out the world???

Certainly, "obedient" soldiers are a military necessity. It is the 'ways-&-means' of creating such a soldier that i ponder... (And the need :-O) Recall, "The Charge Of The Light Brigade"...into the valley of death rode the six-hundred!" The Nuremberg Trials, decried blind obedience...

I understand that attitudes have changed at West Point as well. Certainly NA public attitude as to the value-of-life has risen beyond imagination from that during WWII. Today single digit numbers arouse concerns that daily 4 & 5 digit numbers didn't five decades ago. This is again a VERY good thing! Indicative IMSCO that the traditional Military Complex might be giving way to Education of the general population who are getting beyond Secondary Education into the arena where "Critical Thinking" is--supposed-to-be--the order of the day.

Central to my original post: "does that same verbal/psyche abuse prevail today as in the '60s???" Warm regards, Roger

[_barrelomonkeys]

WOW!! That's for real!!!??? WHY?? It is beyond my understanding that such demeaning, degrading psyche rape would be considered necessary AND acceptable in the "land-of-the-free"??? Might such an attitude--destruction of individualism to serve the Institution without question, or objection, in fact root the the problem of corruption and survival at all costs of self-righteous rule and dominion??

Wonder IF all nations trained their military forces according to the same principle of dehumanization?

Thanks for the posts. Gotta really think this one through... How would/will higher education effect that tradition? Opinions?? Roger

What do you mean by this? That those with less education are more susceptible to conditioning by the armed forces?

I would think that the not asking questions is a necessary aspect of creating a soldier. That so many leave the armed forces as bright, inquisitive young men (I see them on campus, and they're just busting at the seams to learn) means that the military is doing something right! They certainly seem to have a lot of pride.

Hi Barrelo... "... more susceptible...?" in some ways yes. In general, "Ranks" come from a higher social tier, than do the "Files". Often (too) masses have not had the best offered to them on several fronts--schooling, family/community nurturing. Most come from other than institutions of higher-learning.

Quite likely why the brighter come out of the military with more confidence and aspirations than they enlisted/drafted with. No question, "a great thing." Whether that justifies National Militaries through out the world???

Certainly, "obedient" soldiers are a military necessity. It is the 'ways-&-means' of creating such a soldier that I ponder... (And the need :-O) Recall, "The Charge Of The Light Brigade"...into the valley of death rode the six-hundred!" The Nuremberg Trials, decried blind obedience...

I understand that attitudes have changed at West Point as well. Certainly NA public attitude as to the value-of-life has risen beyond imagination from that during WWII. Today single digit numbers arouse concerns that daily 4 & 5 digit numbers didn't five decades ago. This is again a VERY good thing! Indicative IMSCO that the traditional Military Complex might be giving way to Education of the general population who are getting beyond Secondary Education into the arena where "Critical Thinking" is--supposed-to-be--the order of the day.

Central to my original post: "does that same verbal/psyche abuse prevail today as in the '60s???" Warm regards, Roger

Hi Rogers. I know some in the military that don't feel it is necessary. The ways & means I question too to be quite honest.

Although I've never created a soldier, so I'll leave that in more capable hands. :)

[_Mercury]

Ermey and a special guest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8slpQyQZUYk

Great Gaz, now I want a beer.

[_Roger Morrison]

Although I've never created a soldier, so I'll leave that in more capable hands. :)

Might that be avoidance-procedure??? You (we) are a thinking-feeling person. It is essential to an evolving 'anything' that questions be asked and accountability be expected, even demanded, by those not at the centre of the "created"... Otherwise... Ya know what i'm saying? :-) Warm regards, Roger