Gunnar wrote:Obviously you didn't even bother to look at the links, or honestly consider the evidence presented there. More likely still is that you are simply trolling for attention and couldn't care less about making a serious contribution to the discussion.
Besides that, those EXXON scientists have actual expertise in climatology, acquired through years of careful and diligent research, so it is not merely argumentum ad populum. They don't have any expertise on whether it is advisable for me to kill myself. Your argument is as asinine as it could possibly be!
Obviously you don't get it. Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy. One you continue to engage in. My example highlights the problem. If 100% of EXXON's own scientists agree that you should kill yourself Gunnar, will you?
Now, you introduced a new logical fallacy. You are engaging in Argument from authority. You really need to educate yourself about such fallacious arguments and why religious beliefs have no place in science.
Argument from authority is a perfectly valid argument if those you are citing have actual expertise. It is not always necessarily invalid, and I can't believe you don't know this.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:Argument from authority is a perfectly valid argument if those you are citing have actual expertise. It is not always necessarily invalid, and I can't believe you don't know this.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
If 100% of EXXON's own scientists agree that you should kill yourself Gunnar, will you?
Those EXXON scientists are not going to conclude or advise that I kill myself, and, I repeat, they have absolutely no expertise on the advisability of me doing that. It is an absolutely stupid argument and example.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:Those EXXON scientists are not going to conclude or advise that I kill myself, and, I repeat, they have absolutely no expertise on the advisability of me doing that. It is an absolutely stupid argument and example.
No. What you are arguing is absolutely stupid. You are stating that 100% of EXXON's own scientists believe such-and-such, and that it is wrong for EXXON to contradict them. That is a classic example of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum. God. How many times do I have to point this fallacy out to you? Are you damned retarded?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
So, Tobin, are saying that we should never pay attention to what any scientists claim about anything, no matter how thoroughly peer reviewed and no matter how many other scientists agree with them upon successfully duplicating the same experimental results? Should we just throw out the scientific claim of a heliocentric solar system and the existence of astronomical objects that are millions or billions of light years away?
Should we refuse to trust in the expert medical advice of doctors, or the advice of builders and engineers of how to build safe houses, bridges and airplanes?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:So, Tobin, are saying that we should never pay attention to what any scientists claim about anything, no matter how thoroughly peer reviewed and no matter how many other scientists agree with them upon successfully duplicating the same experimental results? Should we just throw out the scientific claim of a heliocentric solar system and the existence of astronomical objects that are millions or billions of light years away?
Should we refuse to trust in the expert medical advice of doctors, or the advice of builders and engineers of how to build safe houses, bridges and airplanes?
Not at all. I'm saying people shouldn't employ specious arguments instead of presenting the facts. I don't mind facts. I don't really know anyone that does? However, I do mind logically fallacious and vapid arguments.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Gunnar wrote:Those EXXON scientists are not going to conclude or advise that I kill myself, and, I repeat, they have absolutely no expertise on the advisability of me doing that. It is an absolutely stupid argument and example.
No. What you are arguing is absolutely stupid. You are stating that 100% of EXXON's own scientists believe such-and-such, and that it is wrong for EXXON to contradict them. That is a classic example of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum. God. How many times do I have to point this fallacy out to you? Are you f*****g r*******?
You still don't understand. What made it wrong for EXXON to contradict what their own scientists were saying is that they understood that these scientist's conclusions were valid and based on sound science and research. They didn't care. Their purpose was to obfuscate the truth in order to protect or maximize their own bottom line. This is obvious from their own playbook and internal corporate documentation. They were caught in that deception, and continued it even after having promised to stop it.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:So, Tobin, are saying that we should never pay attention to what any scientists claim about anything, no matter how thoroughly peer reviewed and no matter how many other scientists agree with them upon successfully duplicating the same experimental results? Should we just throw out the scientific claim of a heliocentric solar system and the existence of astronomical objects that are millions or billions of light years away?
Should we refuse to trust in the expert medical advice of doctors, or the advice of builders and engineers of how to build safe houses, bridges and airplanes?
Not at all. I'm saying people shouldn't employ specious arguments instead of presenting the facts. I don't mind facts. I don't really know anyone that does? However, I do mind logically fallacious and vapid arguments.
Yet you don't respect the facts presented by the EXXON climate researchers and the overwhelming majority of all other climate scientists trying to warn us of the potential dangers of global warming. Even if the overwhelming consensus of climate scientists is somehow wrong, refusing to do anything at all to prevent or ameliorate the potentially bad consequences of global warming until everyone is absolutely sure about it is as foolish as refusing to buy fire insurance until you know that your house is already burning!
I sincerely wish that AGW really were not the problem that most scientists agree that it is, but even if it is not, most, if not all of the measures proposed to minimize it and its consequences are potentially of great benefit in the long run to innovative entrepreneurs, the overall economy and to job creation. Weaning us off our excessive dependence on fossil fuels, improving energy efficiency and minimizing waste of natural resources are all desirable goals, regardless of what is true or not true about AGW.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:You still don't understand. What made it wrong for EXXON to contradict what their own scientists were saying is that they understood that these scientist's conclusions were valid and based on sound science and research. They didn't care. Their purpose was to obfuscate the truth in order to protect or maximize their own bottom line. This is obvious from their own playbook and internal corporate documentation. They were caught in that deception, and continued it even after having promised to stop it.
How do you know they understood that these scientist's conclusions were valid? How did you determine their conclusions are based on sound science and research? How did you determine their purpose was to obfuscate the truth?
The problem, as I keep pointing out to you, is that you like to engage in fallacious arguments. That is not what good scientists do or someone that is interested in the truth of the matter. However, extreme and unsupportable hysterics and claims is the type of thing that religious zealots engage in.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Gunnar wrote:You still don't understand. What made it wrong for EXXON to contradict what their own scientists were saying is that they understood that these scientist's conclusions were valid and based on sound science and research. They didn't care. Their purpose was to obfuscate the truth in order to protect or maximize their own bottom line. This is obvious from their own playbook and internal corporate documentation. They were caught in that deception, and continued it even after having promised to stop it.
How do you know they understood that these scientist's conclusions were valid? How did you determine their conclusions are based on sound science and research? How did you determine their purpose was to obfuscate the truth?
If you had read the links I provided you would already know the answers to those questions.
The problem, as I keep pointing out to you, is that you like to engage in fallacious arguments. That is not what good scientists do or someone that is interested in the truth of the matter. However, extreme and unsupportable hysterics and claims is the type of thing that religious zealots engage in.
No! The real religious zealots are the ones who deliberately ignore and obfuscate the evidence of AGW because they don't like what that evidence points to.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison