Secularism as a proxy for religion.

[K Graham]

The CDC is the priesthood and Anthony Fauci is the high priest.

And their track record of saving lives and spreading useful information in just two years far surpasses anything we've gotten from 2000+ years of Christianity.

[Res Ipsa]

The CDC is the priesthood and Anthony Fauci is the high priest.

I've never understood why religious folks make this kind of argument. It uses religious concepts to discredit people, as if it's bad to be a religious figure. So, Ajax actually thinks having attributes of religion somehow makes one inferior?

Also, if we make everything a religion, then whatever we used to think of religion loses its special protections under the Constitution. There are tons of non-theists who would love to see that.

Every time I see someone do this, I think "Own Goal"

[Gunnar]

I've never understood why religious folks make this kind of argument. It uses religious concepts to discredit people, as if it's bad to be a religious figure. So, Ajax actually thinks having attributes of religion somehow makes one inferior?

Also, if we make everything a religion, then whatever we used to think of religion loses its special protections under the Constitution. There are tons of non-theists who would love to see that.

Every time I see someone do this, I think "Own Goal"

That's more or less the way I see it whenever someone spouts that kind of ignorance. By that comment ajax inadvertently revealed that he really doesn't have a good understanding of either religion or science, or how they are supposed to work.

[Gunnar]

The CDC is the priesthood and Anthony Fauci is the high priest.

Tell us, ajax, what do you think of your Prophet and leader, Russel M. Nelson's strong admonition to you and all your fellow church members to follow the CDC's vaccine, masking and social distance recommendations for combatting the covid pandemic? You surely realize that, in addition to being the divinely chosen and ordained Prophet of the Lord, he is also a highly acclaimed thoracic surgeon and medical authority, don't you? Do you think his advice and recommendation is dishonest or uninspired by God, or that he is just another medical quack? Perhaps you think he is just a coward too intimidated by the prevailing scientific and political consensus to tell what he really thinks? Did you raise your hand to sustain him as your Prophet and leader at the last General Conference, or did you raise your hand against him because you disagree with his stance on following those guidelines? I really want to know how you truly feel about this.

[ajax18]

Tell us, ajax, what do you think of your Prophet and leader, Russel M. Nelson's strong admonition to you and all your fellow church members to follow the CDC's vaccine, masking and social distance recommendations for combatting the covid pandemic?

Can you give me the exact quote you're referring to? I remember them saying "governmental authorities." I don't remember him saying CDC. I've worn a mask to church when I've been asked to do so. We were asked to rise above arguing over the politics of the COVID response. One letter from the regional authorities was quick to point out that masks don't stop COVID (especially cloth masks) but the church leaders believed it helped.

I'm happy to wear my mask to Church for now to help protect the Church from opportunistic politicians who would look to sue and take money from the church because we had a meeting and someone got COVID. If the brethren have to bow down before the political powers that be and tell them what they want to hear to spare us from persecution as members of the church than I thank President Nelson for his wisdom in doing so. That's essentially what the Church did in the General Manifesto on polygamy. My bishop and stake president know I think the lockdowns, masks, and vaccine mandates are unconstitutional and overblown in the mainstream media for the primary purpose of getting rid of Trump. Nobody has asked me to turn in my temple recommend over it. In fact my best friend and first counselor in the stake presidency agrees with me that the whole thing was more about political science than it was medical science. Yes there are Democrats in church just as there are those who don't believe in polygamy and we don't talk about COVID in church anymore than we talk about polygamy. We have members who come and refuse to wear the mask for medical reasons. To their credit those in the ward who lean left have not shamed or confronted these members for not wearing a mask. Most members who wear a mask aren't wearing an N95 mask anyway probably because they're just too uncomfortable.

Did you raise your hand to sustain him as your Prophet and leader at the last General Conference, or did you raise your hand against him because you disagree with his stance on following those guidelines? I really want to know how you truly feel about this.

Yeah, I sustained him. So far I haven't been released from my calling because of my views on COVID, in fact I've spoken in sacrament meeting, taught Elders Quorum, primary, new members, investigators, and am currently on the ward council. I also still have my optometrists license.

You asked me about his before. I believe I offered you this analogy. Russell M. Nelson is sealed for time and all eternity to two women in Celestial marriage. In the afterlife, he believes as I do that he will be married two women in a polygamous relationship. Now how much does he talk about this belief and display it on the church PR department?

Let's take my Dad for example. He's well over 65 but returning to work again. Before he's allowed to return, he's being forced to get vaccinated. He suffered through his life with an autoimmune condition so we've looked for the mildest vaccine possible since we're far more scared of his autoimmune condition than we are of COVID. My Dad is far more of a chapel Mormon than I am. He has no problem with anything President Nelson or the Quorum of the Twelve have said and he listens to everything they say far more closely than I do. And in his words he also believes the political lockdown response and murder accusations to this scamdemic were BS from the beginning.

The vaccine mandate is a nonissue at this point because vaccinated people can still spread COVID. As I said at the beginning of this pandemic, we're all going to get COVID at some point. And 99.96% of us have survived. As I said at the beginning, COVID eradication is not possible, not even for Australia. COVID is like the flu. Although it's more deadly, there will be a different variant every year, which is why it was so insanely foolish to trash the economy with the shutdown in March of 2020. But that was done for political reasons. You have to destroy the world economy and prove that it doesn't work before you can implement Bernie Sanders style Democratic socialism much less reach your final goal which is Chinese communism. This pandemic response has also helped to concentrate power in the hands of globalist oligarchs and crush small businessmen throughout the world. As with the 1619 project, you must demonstrate that American and world institutions are racist before you can tear them down strip people of their savings and impose a global economic reset.

[Some Schmo]

I've never understood why religious folks make this kind of argument. It uses religious concepts to discredit people, as if it's bad to be a religious figure. So, Ajax actually thinks having attributes of religion somehow makes one inferior?

Beastie used to have a signature about this, something like, "A theist will use science if they think it promotes their religion, and disparage science by calling it a religion."

I really doubt most people truly believe in their religion. I suspect they only believe in believing it.

[Marcus]

Let's take my Dad for example. He's well over 65 but returning to work again. Before he's allowed to return, he's being forced to get vaccinated. He suffered through his life with an autoimmune condition so we've looked for the mildest vaccine possible since we're far more scared of his autoimmune condition than we are of COVID.

A one-time shot where you can carefully control and monitor the short time period around it, and thus decrease the negative effect of future covid exposure, vs. your father daily being exposed to multiple people and where you have no way of knowing, until it is too late, whether your father's autoimmune condition has been compromised, which could happen repeatedly. The effects of covid on autoimmune issues are well established, and significantly more deadly and pervasive than negative vaccine reponses.

Maybe there are more factors, but as you present it, your position is illogical in the extreme.

[ajax18]

Let's take my Dad for example. He's well over 65 but returning to work again. Before he's allowed to return, he's being forced to get vaccinated. He suffered through his life with an autoimmune condition so we've looked for the mildest vaccine possible since we're far more scared of his autoimmune condition than we are of COVID.

A one-time shot where you can carefully control and monitor the short time period around it, and thus decrease the negative effect of future covid exposure, vs. your father daily being exposed to multiple people and where you have no way of knowing, until it is too late, whether your father's autoimmune condition has been compromised, which could happen repeatedly. The effects of covid on autoimmune issues are well established, and significantly more deadly and pervasive than negative vaccine reponses.

Maybe there are more factors, but as you present it, your position is illogical in the extreme.

He had COVID once and got over it fine. The vaccine isn't going to do much to help him and in reality it's not going to make him much less contagious to others. I think he'd rather be dead than have his autoimmune condition return. The autoimmune condition is just one doctors theory. Medicial science really doesn't know exactly what was causing him the constant pain and inflammation. And that's not uncommon. Our understanding of body chemistry problems is still pretty poor. Our ability to treat these conditions in a real world clinical setting with a limited amount of time and money lags behind that even more. Every time you put a pill in your mouth it's an experiment. Ultimately it's the patient who has to manage his own health and make decisions, which is how it should be given the patient has had a lot more time to think about his situation than the Doctor. Doctor's can only give advice.

[Res Ipsa]

A one-time shot where you can carefully control and monitor the short time period around it, and thus decrease the negative effect of future covid exposure, vs. your father daily being exposed to multiple people and where you have no way of knowing, until it is too late, whether your father's autoimmune condition has been compromised, which could happen repeatedly. The effects of covid on autoimmune issues are well established, and significantly more deadly and pervasive than negative vaccine reponses.

Maybe there are more factors, but as you present it, your position is illogical in the extreme.

He had COVID once and got over it fine. The vaccine isn't going to do much to help him and in reality it's not going to make him much less contagious to others. I think he'd rather be dead than have his autoimmune condition return. The autoimmune condition is just one doctors theory. Medicial science really doesn't know exactly what was causing him the constant pain and inflammation. And that's not uncommon. Our understanding of body chemistry problems is still pretty poor. Our ability to treat these conditions in a real world clinical setting with a limited amount of time and money lags behind that even more. Every time you put a pill in your mouth it's an experiment. Ultimately it's the patient who has to manage his own health and make decisions, which is how it should be given the patient has had a lot more time to think about his situation than the Doctor. Doctor's can only give advice.

I'm sorry to hear that he suffered from (idiopathic?) pain and inflammation. I know a couple of folks that have the same symptoms, and it's both miserable and frustrating. I wouldn't want that kind of condition to return either.

[ajax18]

He had COVID once and got over it fine. The vaccine isn't going to do much to help him and in reality it's not going to make him much less contagious to others. I think he'd rather be dead than have his autoimmune condition return. The autoimmune condition is just one doctors theory. Medicial science really doesn't know exactly what was causing him the constant pain and inflammation. And that's not uncommon. Our understanding of body chemistry problems is still pretty poor. Our ability to treat these conditions in a real world clinical setting with a limited amount of time and money lags behind that even more. Every time you put a pill in your mouth it's an experiment. Ultimately it's the patient who has to manage his own health and make decisions, which is how it should be given the patient has had a lot more time to think about his situation than the Doctor. Doctor's can only give advice.

I'm sorry to hear that he suffered from (idiopathic?) pain and inflammation. I know a couple of folks that have the same symptoms, and it's both miserable and frustrating. I wouldn't want that kind of condition to return either.

That is very supportive and benevolent of you Res Ipsa. Thank you. I had a patient the other day who came in a wheelchair. Guillaume Barre syndrome left him unable to see the Big E along with unable to walk. How did he get it? He got a flu vaccine in 2019. According to his neurologist 1 in 400,000 an opportunistic prion can attach to the vaccine and set this off. Thankfully many people with Guillaume Barre do regain their sight and mobility though don't fully return to health. But I'd say Guillaume Barre is far worse than the flu or even COVID, at least for this man.