Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

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ajax18
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

Post by ajax18 »

So paying folks more doesn’t translate into inflation? And a company that’s increasing wages doesn’t attempt to compensate by raising the price of their goods?
It could increase the cost of a particular service but the savings to the economy as a whole when you factor in the fact that the taxpayer will no longer have to subsidize healthcare, education, and pretty much everything else legal workers have to pay for should be evident.
Wasn’t one of your earlier arguments against the COVID economic income payments that they drove the spike in inflation?
Without a doubt the "infrastructure," environmentalism boondoggle" a.k.a. inflation reduction act drove an enormous spike in inflation . I doubt inflation will ever get back to 2019 levels. There's a big difference in paying people sit idle and produce nothing versus paying them enough to be self sufficient and independent of government subsidy. Being forced to modernize farm equipment due to lack of slave/illegal immigrant labor is actually how things get better for humanity, not perpetual 3rd world overpopulation to help create an endless supply desperate and impoverished people.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

Post by ajax18 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:09 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 4:43 pm


We're talking about an increase in worker's wages, 8not an increase in the cost of groceries, gasoline, and housing. I do admit that this would cut into the profits of wealthy employers of illegal immigrants like Veritas if such policies were implemented in his home state, which should explain his stance on the issue.
Ajax, if you're going to make these kind of proclamations about the economy, you should take some time and educate yourself on how economics works. Remember the spike in oil prices? Did the increase in the cost of crude oil cut into the profits of the oil companies who buy crude from the producers and then refine it and sell you gasoline? Hell no! They made record profits even though they were paying record prices to the Saudis and other oil producers. For businesses, increased costs are increased costs, whether the increased cost is materials, or labor, or capital. When a business's costs increase, the business doesn't eat the entire loss. The increased cost is distributed throughout the entire economy. Just like increases in the cost of crude petroleum is spread throughout the economy, resulting in higher prices for all kinds of goods and services, so do increase in the cost of labor.

If Florida's economy is typical of the U.S. economy, the labor market is tight. What DeSantis has done, in terms of economics, is a government-created labor shortage in the construction industry. So, the first hit is to trade subcontractors: excavators, framers, roofers, etc. These aren't the people you hate. Lots of them are small businesses -- often family businesses. Labor is a large potion of their costs, and the government has just doubled its price. If they are unable to offset that cost increase by raising prices to general contractors, they simply go out of business. Go find a roofer in your area and ask what the effect of doubling their labor costs would have on their business if they couldn't increase their prices.

Luckily for these hard working American families, its very rare that a business can't protect some of its profits from cost increases by increasing its own prices. But its also very rare that a business can push 100% of a cost increase on to its customers. So, what will happen is that some of these small businesses will go out of business (yay, DeSantis -- you just killed small businesses) and general contractors will face increased costs. And on and on. What you eventually get is a contraction in the entire construction industry -- less stuff gets built and the cost of what does get built is more expensive. Housing prices increase and fewer houses are built. Rents will increase. Everyone who is affected by the this cost increase will try to pass it on to someone else. So, the cost of this government created labor shortage will not be borne by the people you hate. it will be borne by you and the people you like.

But that's only part of the way the cost of this artificial labor shortage will spread. Because we're in a tight labor market, those subcontractors we were talking about are going to have to hire currently employed workers away from other employers. So, now Florida employers are going to be in a bidding war over workers. As the construction trades increase the wages they pay, they will peel workers away from grocery stores, food service, and other industries. The increased labor costs for construction workers won't stay in the construction industry -- it will increase the labor costs of grocery stores, restaurants, etc.

What DeSantis has done, in effect, is impose a 100% tax on construction labor and given the proceeds of that tax to the workers. Why, it's redistribution of wealth from small business owners to workers. It's the kind of redistribution of income you claim to hate when its done by Democrats. And it's not going to harm just the people you hate. In fact, it's very likely it will hurt the people you like more than the people you hate. Market forces don't care about people's politics -- they just try to equalize the quanties supplied and demanded of everything by changing prices.

Or, put another way, DeSatis just raised the minimum wage for construction workers only to $30 per hour. Did you think raising the minimum wage generally to just $15 per hour would be the best thing ever because it would put more money in the pockets of American workers? Or is it only a good thing when your favorite right winger does it?

Bottom line: your claim that "We're talking about an increase in worker's wages, not an increase in the cost of groceries, gasoline, and housing" is so detached from reality that it could fairly be described as delusional. Whether you like it or not, you live in an interconnected world in which the ability to swing your fist without hitting someone else is becoming less and less possible. Even worse, when your worldview consists of treating Breitbart as gospel truth, when you throw a punch you're more likely to hit yourself rather than your intended target.
I never liked people who choose to employ illegal immigrants to cut cost or cheat on their taxes whether they make $1 million/year or $50k/year.

Yes, I like redistributing money from overpaid CEOs who need to pay their workers more. To me that's different than taking money from random working people and giving it to random people who won't work.
Last edited by ajax18 on Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

Post by Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:32 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:09 pm


Ajax, if you're going to make these kind of proclamations about the economy, you should take some time and educate yourself on how economics works. Remember the spike in oil prices? Did the increase in the cost of crude oil cut into the profits of the oil companies who buy crude from the producers and then refine it and sell you gasoline? Hell no! They made record profits even though they were paying record prices to the Saudis and other oil producers. For businesses, increased costs are increased costs, whether the increased cost is materials, or labor, or capital. When a business's costs increase, the business doesn't eat the entire loss. The increased cost is distributed throughout the entire economy. Just like increases in the cost of crude petroleum is spread throughout the economy, resulting in higher prices for all kinds of goods and services, so do increase in the cost of labor.

If Florida's economy is typical of the U.S. economy, the labor market is tight. What DeSantis has done, in terms of economics, is a government-created labor shortage in the construction industry. So, the first hit is to trade subcontractors: excavators, framers, roofers, etc. These aren't the people you hate. Lots of them are small businesses -- often family businesses. Labor is a large potion of their costs, and the government has just doubled its price. If they are unable to offset that cost increase by raising prices to general contractors, they simply go out of business. Go find a roofer in your area and ask what the effect of doubling their labor costs would have on their business if they couldn't increase their prices.

Luckily for these hard working American families, its very rare that a business can't protect some of its profits from cost increases by increasing its own prices. But its also very rare that a business can push 100% of a cost increase on to its customers. So, what will happen is that some of these small businesses will go out of business (yay, DeSantis -- you just killed small businesses) and general contractors will face increased costs. And on and on. What you eventually get is a contraction in the entire construction industry -- less stuff gets built and the cost of what does get built is more expensive. Housing prices increase and fewer houses are built. Rents will increase. Everyone who is affected by the this cost increase will try to pass it on to someone else. So, the cost of this government created labor shortage will not be borne by the people you hate. it will be borne by you and the people you like.

But that's only part of the way the cost of this artificial labor shortage will spread. Because we're in a tight labor market, those subcontractors we were talking about are going to have to hire currently employed workers away from other employers. So, now Florida employers are going to be in a bidding war over workers. As the construction trades increase the wages they pay, they will peel workers away from grocery stores, food service, and other industries. The increased labor costs for construction workers won't stay in the construction industry -- it will increase the labor costs of grocery stores, restaurants, etc.

What DeSantis has done, in effect, is impose a 100% tax on construction labor and given the proceeds of that tax to the workers. Why, it's redistribution of wealth from small business owners to workers. It's the kind of redistribution of income you claim to hate when its done by Democrats. And it's not going to harm just the people you hate. In fact, it's very likely it will hurt the people you like more than the people you hate. Market forces don't care about people's politics -- they just try to equalize the quanties supplied and demanded of everything by changing prices.

Or, put another way, DeSatis just raised the minimum wage for construction workers only to $30 per hour. Did you think raising the minimum wage generally to just $15 per hour would be the best thing ever because it would put more money in the pockets of American workers? Or is it only a good thing when your favorite right winger does it?

Bottom line: your claim that "We're talking about an increase in worker's wages, not an increase in the cost of groceries, gasoline, and housing" is so detached from reality that it could fairly be described as delusional. Whether you like it or not, you live in an interconnected world in which the ability to swing your fist without hitting someone else is becoming less and less possible. Even worse, when your worldview consists of treating Breitbart as gospel truth, when you throw a punch you're more likely to hit yourself rather than your intended target.
I never liked people who choose to employ illegal immigrants to cut cost or cheat on their taxes whether they make $1 million/year or $50k/year.
Cleary, those people are among the targets of your resentment. That has nothing to do with the economic effects of a 100% tax on construction labor.
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

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Zero costs are going to come out of construction CEO's pockets. When Trump was unilaterally implementing taxes on American citizens through tariffs, the cost of building a new home went up between $5-20K (or roundabout). You are welcome to cross-reference homebuilder CEO compensation during that time in relation to closings and compare it to other years. CEOs didn't eat the cost. They never do.

It's just another instance of Trumpenomics relying on the Ven diagram of rage and ignorance being as close to a singular circle as possible,
screwing over small business owners and average Americans to help keep the proletariat raging at "the others" (whatever the "other" du jour may be). Some small business contractors are likely to go out of business, if they are stuck in pre-existing accepted bid contracts. The bigger players will consolidate their positions, making it more difficult for any new businesses to break through and introduce competitive bidding. Every day Americans will foot the bill, pay higher costs, and see additional greed-induced inflation.

Money being redistributed from CEO's pockets to workers? LMAO. All that's going to happen is that thousands of people are going to be priced out of home ownership, and rents will likely go up. Yay.
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

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The people of Florida may appreciate Rhonda Santis shooting it in the foot rather than the panhandle. Will this action help surrounding states?
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

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ajax18 wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:59 pm
So paying folks more doesn’t translate into inflation? And a company that’s increasing wages doesn’t attempt to compensate by raising the price of their goods?
It could increase the cost of a particular service but the savings to the economy as a whole when you factor in the fact that the taxpayer will no longer have to subsidize healthcare, education, and pretty much everything else legal workers have to pay for should be evident.
Wasn’t one of your earlier arguments against the COVID economic income payments that they drove the spike in inflation?
Without a doubt the "infrastructure," environmentalism boondoggle" a.k.a. inflation reduction act drove an enormous spike in inflation . I doubt inflation will ever get back to 2019 levels. There's a big difference in paying people sit idle and produce nothing versus paying them enough to be self sufficient and independent of government subsidy. Being forced to modernize farm equipment due to lack of slave/illegal immigrant labor is actually how things get better for humanity, not perpetual 3rd world overpopulation to help create an endless supply desperate and impoverished people.
Claims aren't "evident" by simply claiming that they are. Florida gets its revenue from property taxes, sales taxes and corporate income taxes. Property taxes are borne by owners and renters of real estate. Unless the workers you are targeting commute daily from another state or country, they are paying for property taxes just like any other person who lives in Florida. They are also paying sales taxes, the same as any other person who buys things in Florida. In fact, because sales taxes are highly regressive, unless those workers had incomes above the average in Florida, they are paying a higher percentage of their income to the state than folks who live in Florida. As for health care, those workers are in exactly the same position as the legal citizens who perform the same work. They don't have employer-provided health insurance and are unlikely to be able to afford private health insurance. Workers in Florida who aren't in the country legally aren't eligible for medicaid, although medicaid is paid by the federal government, not the state government.

So, it's not "evident" at all that the overall costs to the legal residents of Florida will go down as a result of DeSantis's 100% tax increase. Florida will lose the sales tax revenue from workers who move out of Florida. It's already short of teachers, so there's not likely much savings to be had there. But somebody has to pay for that 100% tax, and most, if not all, of that burden is going to fall on Floridians.

Likewise, saying "without a doubt" doesn't make what follows true. The notion that the large spike in inflation was caused by the inflation reduction act is dubious, given the timing of the spike in crude oil prices combined with increased demand for petroleum products and the fact that the spike occurred around the world at about the same time. The current inflation rate in the U.S. is about half of that of England and the EU. I'll await your evidence that passing the inflation reduction act caused inflation to spike in England and the EU.

And you still are simply ignoring how cost shifting works in our economy. If farmers have to incur increased costs to replace labor, whether the replacement is more labor or capital), someone is going to pay for it. And that someone is going to include anyone who buys agricultural products from Florida. Whether the cause is increased prices of oranges or orange growers going out of business and reducing the supply of Florida oranges, the prices will rise.

But just so I'm clear here -- you're in favor of redistributing income using the tax system to raise the living standards of workers, right?
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

Post by ajax18 »

Some small business contractors are likely to go out of business, if they are stuck in pre-existing accepted bid contracts.
If their business depends on illegal immigrant labor and the level of tax cheating that comes along with such business practices, maybe they should go out of business.

By this logic, we should refuse to enforce laws against controlled substances because the tienda might go out of business if Pablo Escobar and Hunter Biden no longer shop there. After all we're all interconnected. What businessman can say he never accepted money that was previously used in an illegal drug sale?
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

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Moksha wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:04 pm
The people of Florida may appreciate Rhonda Santis shooting it in the foot rather than the panhandle. Will this action help surrounding states?
It all depends on how you define "help." How the consequences of government action ripple through the economy is contingent on a gazillion different factors. In general, if Georgia has a tight construction labor market like Florida's and lots of workers simply relocate to Georgia and are able to work as they had been doing in Florida, that would help hold down construction labor costs. But that's holding the other gazillion factors constant. (ceteris paribus, as the econ nerds say.)
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

Post by Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:30 pm
Some small business contractors are likely to go out of business, if they are stuck in pre-existing accepted bid contracts.
If their business depends on illegal immigrant labor and the level of tax cheating that comes along with such business practices, maybe they should go out of business.

By this logic, we should refuse to enforce laws against controlled substances because the tienda might go out of business if Pablo Escobar and Hunter Biden no longer shop there. After all we're all interconnected. What businessman can say he never accepted money that was previously used in an illegal drug sale?
I don't know what logic you are referring to, but it's not mine. I'm talking about your delusion that what DeSantis did will hurt only the people you resent. The economic impact of a 100% tax on construction labor will have just as much effect on the people you don't resent as the people you do. That 100% increase hits all the trades, whether they employed illegal workers or not. The ones that used illegal workers will bid up labor prices for all businesses in those trades. Which businesses survive the doubling of labor costs depends on all kinds of factors other than whether they used illegal labor.
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Re: Bye bye illegals don't cry CEOs

Post by ajax18 »

Unless the workers you are targeting commute daily from another state or country, they are paying for property taxes just like any other person who lives in Florida.
It just seems to me that the property taxes aren't as high when you're living many hours away from your family at 12 to a room in a disgusting rural migrant camp (property taxes in rural Florida counties and towns are negligible). Whatever these employers are paying their lettuce pickers, the taxes for the shack by the Okefenokee cucumber field aren't exactly the same as what the students pay in Fort Lauderdale at NOVA medical school, much less what the Church pays on the temple in downtown Orlando, and not anywhere near what the aggregate of retired wealthy New Yorkers pay in the Villages, which is in fact the real secret as to why Florida has still managed to not impose an income tax.

Is that the standard of living we're really trying to achieve here in the US? Do you think the Latinos won't resent being taken advantage of in this way? Do you think their descendants won't want reparations and revenge for centuries after this when they read about this in history books? We're repeating the same mistakes made by southern plantation owners in the antebellum south and our descendants will pay an even heavier price for it.
They are also paying sales taxes, the same as any other person who buys things in Florida.
In fact, because sales taxes are highly regressive, unless those workers had incomes above the average in Florida,
Sales taxes are much higher in urban Florida. So perhaps if you're talking about illegal immigrant hotel maids at Disney. Even so, employers shouldn't be getting a federal income tax break for choosing to hire illegal immigrants over legal American citizens.

As for health care, those workers are in exactly the same position as the legal citizens who perform the same work. They don't have employer-provided health insurance and are unlikely to be able to afford private health insurance.
}

Perhaps they could afford private health insurance if they were paid better, especially if their employers were subject to the same Obamacare laws that employers of legal immigrants are subject to.
workers in Florida who aren't in the country legally aren't eligible for medicaid, although medicaid is paid by the federal government, not the state government.
No they're not eligible for medicaid. But they do still get sick. They do still drive drunk and get in car accidents. And it's illegal to refuse them at the emergency room. So who do you think pays for that, given we're all "interconnected."
So, it's not "evident" at all that the overall costs to the legal residents of Florida will go down as a result of DeSantis's 100% tax increase. Florida will lose the sales tax revenue from workers who move out of Florida.
We'll let's see how things work out. I'll be around in 10 years and hopefully you will be as well.
It's already short of teachers, so there's not likely much savings to be had there.
If a teacher leaves Florida because they can't tell the kids homosexual marriage is morally equivalent to heterosexual marriage or show them kiddie porn in the library, then good riddance. Perhaps the taxpayers in blue America will be willing to raise their salaries and hopefully Democrat voters will follow them out of the state in protest.
But somebody has to pay for that 100% tax, and most, if not all, of that burden is going to fall on Floridians.

Likewise, saying "without a doubt" doesn't make what follows true. The notion that the large spike in inflation was caused by the inflation reduction act is dubious, given the timing of the spike in crude oil prices combined with increased demand for petroleum products and the fact that the spike occurred around the world at about the same time. The current inflation rate in the U.S. is about half of that of England and the EU. I'll await your evidence that passing the inflation reduction act caused inflation to spike in England and the EU.
I blame COVID for much of the global economic meltdown. The scamdemic was a global effort by the CCP and globalist oligarchs to get rid of Trump and the populist movement that was taking hold in other parts of the world as well. When Democrats failed to remove Trump from office after the first impeachment they more than likely gave China the nod to go ahead and unleash COVID upon the world. It was a necessary sacrifice in their minds to hang on to power.
And you still are simply ignoring how cost shifting works in our economy. If farmers have to incur increased costs to replace labor, whether the replacement is more labor or capital), someone is going to pay for it. And that someone is going to include anyone who buys agricultural products from Florida. Whether the cause is increased prices of oranges or orange growers going out of business and reducing the supply of Florida oranges, the prices will rise.
At first, perhaps. Just as prices first rise when environmental regulations are imposed perhaps prices will rise as we "transition" to mechanization. But if Gunnar and Buttigeig get to assume that such new laws will accelerate invention and technological advancement, than why can't I? And your point doesn't answer the question of what the American people did before 1962 when we first adopted policies that fostered a tidal wave of illegal immigration. How were the apples picked or the drywall hung back then? Did your grandparents live in a house and eat apple pie? Or did all your excellent Washington state apples just rot on the vine before 1962?
But just so I'm clear here -- you're in favor of redistributing income using the tax system to raise the living standards of workers, right?
Clever, I admit. We're both engaged is selective accounting to an extent because it's impossible to trace every dollar. I still believe that it's the right of legal American citizens to decide just how much wealth is being generated by importing impoverished and desperate people to come and work for less. You can't just have a powerful Republican chamber of commerce saying, "These people do jobs that Americans won't do. We need them," or a powerful deep state saying, "We need their votes," and then refusing to enforce the law as it is on the books regardless of public opinion. And all this in spite of the enormous numbers of Americans who just can't find a job and require such a robust welfare state just to get by. I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up.

I have a friend I'm working with in Church. He had meningitis as a child and has some mild learning disabilities, but he's at least capable of making a sandwich or taking out the trash. His back gave out as a bricklayer. He gets a paltry $700-800 month in disability. I know this man wants to work. We've applied to job after job. I've even provided transportation for him back and forth to work. He was only making $10/hr at Subway. Apparently that still wasn't good enough of a deal for Subway. Small businessmen say they can't hire loyal people to work for $10/hr. I'm not sure I buy that anymore either.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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