We Need to Go on Offense

[Moksha]

Or you'll get people saying, "People will vote for Trump if you say they're stupid." And that proves its own point. If they vote for Trump they are stupid, no matter what anyone calls them.

Oh yeah? Well what about energizing the Republican Congress when you tell them Trump is a bigger crook than Al Capone, and they slap each other on the back and say, "Well that proves he is our guy!"

[Gunnar]

Perhaps the main perceived advantage of the religious approach to truth and solving problems is its tendency to elevate subjective religious faith and "gut" feelings above hard evidence and critical thinking. The prime advantage of the subjective faith approach is that once one has become convinced, or has convinced oneself, that one's deepest convictions are a product of divine revelation from God Almighty, is that it then becomes too easy to justify never again seriously questioning said convictions, regardless of the provocation, by merely arguing, "how dare we question the word of God?", having made themselves oblivious to the possibility that their own faith might not actually be the word of God. In this way they can greatly minimize the probability of ever having to experience the trauma of finding out and having to admit their most cherished convictions were mistaken. The disadvantage of the religious faith approach is that any errors or misperceptions and injustices resulting from it almost inevitably become perpetuated indefinitely.

On the other hand, perhaps the most perceived disadvantage of critically seeking out and honestly evaluating hard objective evidence to truth and solving problems, while continuingly reevaluating what we already know, or think we know, in the light of new, more complete evidence as it becomes available (the scientific process, in other words), is that it is hard work, and maximizes the probability that even our most cherished and longest-held false convictions and misperceptions will inevitably be exposed as such and corrected. This consequence has, on occasion, been known to cause great consternation even among some eminent scientists, who above all people claim to advocate this approach. Nevertheless, this consequence is the greatest strength and virtue of this approach. It makes it inherently self-correcting and ultimately leads us to greater truth and understanding, though not without occasional fits and starts, as some previously held mistaken scientific concepts are found to be at least partially in error and need to be revised or abandoned.

ETA: In short, effective use of science and empirical evidence requires that the user be humble enough to admit the possibility of being mistaken, and therefore commit oneself to find and root out one's own mistaken ideas in the light of new, more complete evidence as it becomes available, while the religious faith approach too often is characterized by a stubborn refusal to even seriously consider the possibility of being mistaken, regardless of evidence or lack of it.

[Some Schmo]

Perhaps the main perceived advantage of the religious approach to truth and solving problems is its tendency to elevate subjective religious faith and "gut" feelings above hard evidence and critical thinking.

The perceived advantage here is not having to think much, but that's not the advantage one thinks it might be.

This is what needs to be attacked: the idea that your subjective feelings are worthy of anyone else's consideration when it comes to public policy.

I was thinking about the idea Physics Guy brought up about how the message is that liberals are coming to take away your religion. That's just another false religious tenet. Telling people we don't share their dubious beliefs and so we aren't interested in public policy that reflects those beliefs is nowhere near trying to take away someone's religion. I'm not trying to change what people believe, just put what they believe in its place. Their adoration of religious ideas and stories is no more noble or reasonable than being a hardcore Star Wars fan.

If anything, Christian Nationalists are trying to take everyone else's beliefs away in favor of theirs.

Ahhh... where would religion be without hypocrisy and lies?

[Some Schmo]

So what do you suggest?

Or did you mean how do folks "get through" to Christian Nationalists?

That's exactly what I'd like to know, because what we're doing now is ineffective.

[Gunnar]

Perhaps the main perceived advantage of the religious approach to truth and solving problems is its tendency to elevate subjective religious faith and "gut" feelings above hard evidence and critical thinking.

The perceived advantage here is not having to think much, but that's not the advantage one thinks it might be.

Obviously not! That was my point. But the most deeply religious seem to think it gives them an insurmountable advantage.

This is what needs to be attacked: the idea that your subjective feelings are worthy of anyone else's consideration when it comes to public policy.

I was thinking about the idea Physics Guy brought up about how the message is that liberals are coming to take away your religion. That's just another false religious tenet. Telling people we don't share their dubious beliefs and so we aren't interested in public policy that reflects those beliefs is nowhere near trying to take away someone's religion. I'm not trying to change what people believe, just put what they believe in its place. Their adoration of religious ideas and stories is no more noble or reasonable than being a hardcore Star Wars fan.

If anything, Christian Nationalists are trying to take everyone else's beliefs away in favor of theirs.

Ahhh... where would religion be without hypocrisy and lies?

Agreed, in general, but there are, nevertheless, admirable religious adherents and leaders to be found whom I would not characterize as hypocrites.

[Gadianton]

It's kind of an aside, but one of the funny things about displaying the Ten Commandments in school - not as funny as the over-the-top hypocrisy of top Christian republicans being the biggest offenders - but my interaction with born again Christians has typically been they have a great disdain for the Old Testament and especially the Law of Moses. Many Christians have a New Testament-only Bible. A big contention with Mormonism is that Mormons believe in salvation by works - by trying to obey the law. Jesus did away with that. Yes, technically, the 10 commandments are the law, but by the law, no flesh is justified. There is no point in even trying to obey the law. If you've broken one commandment, you've broken them all. There is no place in the born-again gospel for the Ten Commandments other than the historical fact that the law doesn't work. The only hope is to accept Jesus and be saved. There's literally no reason to talk about the Ten Commandments outside of this context, as it's literally impossible for anyone to live them, and it's sheer futility even trying to live them. In fact, the only thing more unbiblical than breaking the Ten Commandments is trying to live the Ten Commandments.

It will be interesting to see if that messaging begins to change if displaying the Ten Commandments everywhere becomes a major rallying point for born-again Christians. Reconstructionism itself may have been around for a while, but it's been an extreme minority view. I feel like, right-wing politicians who barely have cracked a Bible gravitate to the most extreme views they hear about for their messaging, and have no understanding about what Christianity is. At the same time, I feel like Christianity is airy and weak, And Christians are easily influenced by stupid people, and they are prone to re-invent themselves. It will just be interesting to see, because the more "Jesus freak" a person used to be, the more that person was unlikely to own a Old Testament. As a "saved by grace" "Jesus Freak" transitions to a "Trump freak", will that pick up a new found obsession with Old Testament law?

here is a Amazon search for "new testament only Bible". New Testament + psalms and Proverbs. hmm. Ajax, how have so many Christians been living their lives without even having a copy of the Ten Commandments themselves?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=new+testamen ... _sb_noss_2

[huckelberry]

It's kind of an aside, but one of the funny things about displaying the Ten Commandments in school - not as funny as the over-the-top hypocrisy of top Christian republicans being the biggest offenders - but my interaction with born again Christians has typically been they have a great disdain for the Old Testament and especially the Law of Moses. Many Christians have a New Testament-only Bible.

here is a Amazon search for "new testament only Bible". New Testament + psalms and Proverbs. hmm. Ajax, how have so many Christians been living their lives without even having a copy of the Ten Commandments themselves?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=new+testamen ... _sb_noss_2

A book that contains psalms contains a bunch of material like this:

Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord.
Blessed are those who keep his testimonies who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong but walk in his ways.
Thou has commanded thy precepts to be kept diligently.

Gadianton, I enjoy a lot of your observations about Trump supporters, right wing enthusiasts, and fundamentalists. I learn some things from you. I think some of your caricatures of Christianity say something about what you see.

Yet I feel an urge to make stuffy-minded adjustments to your comment. I think you describe Christianity as presented by people with a half-digested chic comic instruction. Yet that is a real phenomenon.

Among these Christian nationalists the idea of keeping the law is strong and growing. That is usually only some of the law, but there are some who imagine lots or all of it.

That leaves a lot of space for nationalists to disagree about. But that is not Trump's problem. He believes in the gospel of positive thinking; followers of Christian nationalism are just useful.

[yellowstone123]

Conquer the fortress
Laying siege to a castle was a common tactic in medieval warfare, used by armies to capture a strategic stronghold or force the surrender of its defenders. Here’s an overview of the process:

Preparation

Before laying siege, the attacking army would prepare by:

(a) Cutting off the castle’s supply lines, including food, water, and reinforcements

(b) Establishing a siege camp to house the army and its equipment

(c) Constructing siege engines, such as catapults, trebuchets, and battering rams

(d) Gathering a large enough force to overwhelm the castle’s defenses

Valo will soon commence item (c).

The catapult is definitely making a comeback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8RTVHJgksY

[Jersey Girl]

Or did you mean how do folks "get through" to Christian Nationalists?

That's exactly what I'd like to know, because what we're doing now is ineffective.

The answer is obvious. The only way to get through to Christian Nationalists is to walk them through scripture and ask open ended questions, Schmo. You bring them back to the words of Jesus including his blatant condemnation of the Sanhedrin which was, to my knowledge, a political force that sought to maintain status and build wealth with a strict adherence to the Law. When you compare that to the teachings of Jesus their reasoning simply doesn't fly and I am more than sure they are relying on the Old Testament for support of their mission.

You're not going to like that answer. It's time consuming and painstaking. And has to be done in a non-confrontational way.

I'm telling you, if I were a Christian Nationalist and you wanted to change my mind, the ONLY way I could be swayed is if you asked me questions about scripture and why I thought I needed to be part of a political force in order to change government on this earth--->Jesus did NOT preach an earthbound ministry. He taught the exact opposite. Further, you could go back into the Old Testament and show me how many times Israel was consequenced for it's refusal to obey God and HOW Israel disobeyed. Tie it all together and you could change my mind unless I were posing as a Christian Nationalist.

No one is more surprised than me when I realize that what my instinct tell me is right/wrong is rooted in scripture. I know you don't include people like me in your condemnations but rest assured there are far more people like me in congregations all over this country than there are in the Christian Nationalist category.

If you want to use me as a test monkey for how to present to a Christian Nationalist, feel free. I'd have to study up on their positions in advance OR you could raise an issue you have with them and I could respond to it scripturally which is the ONLY way you can poke holes in groupthink like that--scriptural talking points.

Just as a side note (because I feel like it) look at Trump and his psychophants. What do they treasure? Power, status,wealth. ALL things Jesus reportedly taught against.

Anyway, the test monkey offer is open to you any time. I'm around...

[Jersey Girl]

It's kind of an aside, but one of the funny things about displaying the Ten Commandments in school - not as funny as the over-the-top hypocrisy of top Christian republicans being the biggest offenders - but my interaction with born again Christians has typically been they have a great disdain for the Old Testament and especially the Law of Moses. Many Christians have a New Testament-only Bible. A big contention with Mormonism is that Mormons believe in salvation by works - by trying to obey the law. Jesus did away with that. Yes, technically, the 10 commandments are the law, but by the law, no flesh is justified. There is no point in even trying to obey the law. If you've broken one commandment, you've broken them all. There is no place in the born-again gospel for the Ten Commandments other than the historical fact that the law doesn't work. The only hope is to accept Jesus and be saved. There's literally no reason to talk about the Ten Commandments outside of this context, as it's literally impossible for anyone to live them, and it's sheer futility even trying to live them. In fact, the only thing more unbiblical than breaking the Ten Commandments is trying to live the Ten Commandments.

It will be interesting to see if that messaging begins to change if displaying the Ten Commandments everywhere becomes a major rallying point for born-again Christians. Reconstructionism itself may have been around for a while, but it's been an extreme minority view. I feel like, right-wing politicians who barely have cracked a Bible gravitate to the most extreme views they hear about for their messaging, and have no understanding about what Christianity is. At the same time, I feel like Christianity is airy and weak, And Christians are easily influenced by stupid people, and they are prone to re-invent themselves. It will just be interesting to see, because the more "Jesus freak" a person used to be, the more that person was unlikely to own a Old Testament. As a "saved by grace" "Jesus Freak" transitions to a "Trump freak", will that pick up a new found obsession with Old Testament law?

here is a Amazon search for "new testament only Bible". New Testament + psalms and Proverbs. hmm. Ajax, how have so many Christians been living their lives without even having a copy of the Ten Commandments themselves?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=new+testamen ... _sb_noss_2

Gad I'm sorry I'm not carefully reading your whole post (long day) but one of the main issues with Christian Nationalists wanting to display the 10 Commandments in schools is that they ignore the Sermon on the Mount and other of the teachings of Jesus.