The Folly of Plug-in Hybrids in many places.

[Gunnar]

A very real concern is that our last few years of climate experience have aligned with some of the worst case climate models. The reality we will not achieve the slow down of average temperature increase of 1.5 degrees C above preindustrial levels is setting in. Moving off of fossil fuels to renewables isn't a long term economic nice to have. It's a should have happened, and we are playing catch-up. The external costs of our dependence on fossil fuels is driving record numbers of $1 billion+ disaster recoveries that are only projected to amplify.

Even if the near term math doesn't pencil out, which I believe PG pointed out was in error, the long term costs dwarf the costs that come from our failure to act.

Another extremely important fact that can't be overstated! Even the now fossil fuel-based energy producing corporations would be better off and even wealthier now than they now are had they had the foresight, early on, to understand that being in the energy business needn't have depended exclusively or even mainly on just selling fossil fuels for our energy needs.

[Gunnar]

Obviously I meant 38 cents, which is 0.38 dollars. So my figures are correct when we consider that.

Out of curiosity, is this the peak usage rate during summer, or is this the rate you pay year-round?

If year-round, that's wild.

I'm not sure. I should probably look into that. My family, because we have a special needs child, benefits from an energy plan that evens out our energy bills month to month over the year at a somewhat reduced rate.

[Gunnar]

I have a 2023 Tesla Model 3, which I charge with a wall charger mounted in my garage. My electric bill has gone up about $130 per month, but I've been saving about $360 per month in gas. It's been great so far.

It appears that you made a wise decision, for sure. A lot better than switching (in effect) from a car that gets 30 mpg using $3.79 per gallon gas to a car that gets 82 mpg using $12.80 per gallon gas.

[Gunnar]

After doing a bit more research, it appears that PHEV vehicles might not be quite as bad as I thought they would be. If one owns a PHEV or EV, one is entitled to much lower charging rates if charging a vehicle during non-peak hours--as low as the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline's worth of energy for $2.90, in which case a Pacifica's 82 mpg equivalent would cost 3.5 cents per mile of travel on battery power alone. Under some circumstances one could be eligible for rates that would be equivalent to $1.88 per gallon, in which case 82 mpg equivalent would cost only 2.2 cents per mile of driving on battery power alone. For pure EVs typically getting mpg equivalent of 100 miles or more, which many of them do, they would be even cheaper to drive, if they were charged only at home during those off-peak hours. Not as bad as I thought!

[Chadillac]

EVs make sense to me and have a lot of advantages of ICE vehicles. In addition to the savings of buying electricity instead of gasoline and the ability to be powered by nuclear/hydro/wind/solar, they have fewer moving parts and require less maintenance. Instant torque from the electric motors can result in insane acceleration numbers, placing the batteries on the floor of the vehicle results in a very low CG, and you extra room where the engine typically is. Some of the downsides of EVs is infrastructure still needs to catch up, higher initial cost than a similar ICE vehicle, most EVs are very ugly, and in my opinion still not as fun as a high revving engine paired to a manual transmission. However, I think many of those downsides will be fixed in the coming years.

PHEVs combine some of the benefits of EVs and ICE vehicles but this comes with many of the downsides from both types of vehicles too. They seem like a stop gap between the transition from ICE to EVs. You will save some money by not having to buy as much gas, but I imagine it will take several years of driving to offset the higher initial cost of the PHEV. In addition, they plug-in hybrid portion adds a lot of complexity to an already complex ICE vehicle and increases the risk of costly repairs. I perform most maintenance on my vehicles, but I would not feel comfortable working on a system that could electrocute me. You also have the added weight of the batteries with an already heavy ICE and those batteries cut into storage space.

For my DD, I plan on driving an ICE power vehicle for at least a few more years and wait and see how much EV/battery prices drop and how fast infrastructure improves. For racing and fun weekend cars, I think I'll always choose ICE and manual transmissions.

[Physics Guy]

I have to admit that I had no idea how much electricity cost per kWh. I thought $0.0038 might be realistic.

In fact I think that the Canadian province of Quebec must have some of the world's cheapest electricity, with all those hydroelectric dams in the north, and it seems to work out to about USD 0.06/kWh.

In British Columbia it's up around USD 0.25, and it's about that in Germany and France as well, though some places have different prices at different times of day, or tiered pricing where you pay higher rates the more you use. That puts the costs of electricity and gasoline per kWh roughly similar there.

US gas prices are unusually low. USD 0.38 per kWh seems really high. At that rate, it might start being worthwhile to buy gas and run a generator.

[Doctor Steuss]

US gas prices are unusually low. USD 0.38 per kWh seems really high. At that rate, it might start being worthwhile to buy gas and run a generator.

As a reference point of... well, one.

Here in southern Nevada it is just shy of $0.13 per kWh ($0.12989) for residential single-family homes.

During the summer, if you opted into "Time-of-Use," It's about $0.08 during "off-peak" hours (i.e. night, and early morning) and $0.50 per kWh during on-peak hours. In the Winter, it averages out to about $0.08 (there's only a little over a penny difference between on and off peak). Last year, I think it was $0.33 for on-peak, so there was a pretty big rate hike to try to get people to not use as much electricity during the day (good luck, when it's 119 degrees outside).

[drumdude]

I love Toyota hybrid vehicles. They're extremely gas efficient, they're relatively torque-y. They're fun to drive with the e-CVT. And the design of the vehicle means less maintenance - no alternator, starter, etc.

The ability to plug them in is relatively useless unless your daily commute is only like 10-20 miles. On long road trips it's going to just act like a normal non-plug in hybrid.

[Dr. Shades]

At that rate, it might start being worthwhile to buy gas and run a generator.

So, global warming isn't a thing?

[Chap]

At that rate, it might start being worthwhile to buy gas and run a generator.

So, global warming isn't a thing?

Thank you for mentioning that.

Personally, I am perfectly willing to give up a certain amount of "fun" in my means of transport in order to be able to look my children in the eye. If I had to say "I decided to keep on burning fossil fuels in my car to the maximum necessary so I could have the fun I wanted, so I hope you (and your kids) won't mind living with the consequences after I have done my bit to **** up the climate", I would feel a bit bad about doing that.

But of course, your mileage may differ, in both the literal and the metaphorical sense.