Calling it "Politically Motivated"

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Gunnar
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 21, 2025 5:57 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Mar 21, 2025 5:50 pm
DEI is an attempt at systemic decency, which is a direct assault on systemic racism, so I understand why Trump fans hate it.
Yeah, I have no doubt that a lot of the motivation behind support for Trump is racism, especially with people like Stephen Miller and Elon Musk involved.
To be sure! That has been glaringly obvious to me from the start of Trump's ascendency! It was deeply heartbreaking to me to find out that latent racism appears to still be so much more deeply ingrained in so many more Americans than I had thought. :cry:
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Mar 21, 2025 5:50 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 21, 2025 5:41 pm
When they have no Social Security, their investments are in the toilet, and they are living in a poorer, weaker, and more isolated country with high unemployment and inflation, they can rest assured that they don't have to see the acronym DEI on a federal government webpage, which they probably never visit anyway.
DEI is an attempt at systemic decency, which is a direct assault on systemic racism, so I understand why Trump fans hate it.
I still firmly believe in the importance and virtue of DEI, but it must be balanced by MEI (Merit, Excellence, Intelligence/integrity)
Conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) have become highly polarized. At one end of the spectrum some politicians attack DEI as a threat to democracy, some academics describe DEI as an ideology that stifles academic freedom, and some corporate leaders claim that DEI fosters mediocrity and threatens success. At the other end of the spectrum, some politicians describe DEI as an essential element of democracy, some academics claim that everyone must be taught about DEI, and some corporate leaders claim that DEI is a key ingredient to create lasting value.

These diverging viewpoints are at the heart of the ongoing debate that pits DEI against MEI (which stands for merit, excellence, intelligence). But arguing that DEI and MEI are in opposition creates a false dichotomy and is counterproductive. In the words of Stephen Chu, Chief Legal and Administrative Officer at human capital management company InStride, “The terms ‘diversity, equity, and inclusion’ have been overly politicized but in actuality, the goal of constructing a workforce based on merit, excellence, and intelligence requires a thoughtful approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion. Merit without opportunity is an illusion.”

The rhetoric that pits diversity and merit as opposites is counterproductive because, in reality, both sides want the same thing: a fair chance to pursue opportunities and to be rewarded for one’s efforts. But the polarization leads to opposite interpretations, as explained by Cynthia Overton, Senior Director of Tech Workplace Initiatives at the Kapor Foundation: “To those who support it, DEI is grounded in the notion that, if one has the skills to do a job, they should not be penalized because of their race, gender, or other identity traits. And yet, those who oppose it use the term DEI to refer to someone who achieved something based on their personal characteristics rather than on merit.”

How can the same concepts be interpreted so differently? Part of the problem lies in the increased tendency to consume information from sources we trust, while discarding information from other sources. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the more extreme viewpoints tend to be the ones that receive the most coverage in traditional and social media.
In other words, the problem of DEI is not inherent in DEI itself but in the injudicious and inflexible way some have chosen to implement it.

I still suspect, though, that the deeper truth is that Trump and many of his sycophantic followers and enablers (probably Musk, especially) really are racists, and sometimes seem quite open and unapologetic about it!

The rest of the article:
How can the same concepts be interpreted so differently? Part of the problem lies in the increased tendency to consume information from sources we trust, while discarding information from other sources. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the more extreme viewpoints tend to be the ones that receive the most coverage in traditional and social media.

First, let’s consider the DEI side. Women and members of other historically underrepresented groups experience forms of discrimination that interfere with their ability to succeed in the workplace. The discrimination is often not overt: sometimes it is due to unconscious biases, other times it is due to biases in organizational policies and processes. In fact, these forms of discrimination are virtually invisible to members of the majority. What is visible is the low levels of representation. So, in order to address the problem, DEI supporters suggest setting targets for higher representation levels, and training everyone to recognize their own unconscious biases—focusing on the symptoms instead of the root causes. However, from the point of view of members of the majority, this amounts to being told that “you will be less likely to be promoted because you are not underrepresented,” and that this is justified because you are fundamentally a bad person whose unconscious biases are causing discrimination. And this leads to animosity and complaints of reverse discrimination.

Now let’s look at the MEI side. Members of the majority often enjoy privileges, but just like the unconscious biases, these privileges are largely invisible to us (I say “us” being myself a member of this group). We get an education, we apply for jobs, we work hard to succeed in those jobs, and feel good when we are rewarded for our efforts. We assume that if we have been successful by following a certain path, it is because we deserve it. We also assume that those who follow the same path are likely to succeed. In other words, we often judge potential based on the schools we attended, the internships we did, the networks we were able to leverage. And this is how we define “merit” in a meritocracy. If someone was unable to achieve a certain level of success, we assume that it is because they were simply not very good, and not because they faced and continue to face obstacles that we never have to face—again, we focus on symptoms and ignore root causes. From the point of view of members of underrepresented groups, this amounts to being told that “you are not good enough because you didn’t go to a top school” and that if you are struggling at work it’s not because of all the day-to-day problems you face, it is simply because you are less capable. Worst of all, as a result of misguided DEI approaches of recent years, it is often assumed that if you advance in your career it is probably because of your gender or skin color, not because you deserve it.

These observations should make it clear that the differences between DEI and MEI are largely grounded in how these concepts are interpreted and applied, not in their original intent.

And this suggests that the best way to end the polarization is to stop listening to the divisive rhetoric, and focus instead on what we all want: the opportunity to get a job for which we are qualified, to keep that job if we are performing well, and to advance in our careers based on performance.
I think the article makes a lot of valid points that deserve honest consideration. To me, the most important take away is that there is nothing inherently evil or sinister about DEI, especially when it is properly integrated with MEI.
Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 21, 2025 6:24 pm
Honestly, I think corporate Democrats do DEI so they can avoid redressing the unfairness of our current system, dominated as it is by corporate and billionaire donors who would rather have someone in their employ write new DEI policies than pay meaningful taxes.
I think you are right that too many corporate Democrats are also too beholden to wealthy and avaricious billionaire donors. I think many Democrat voters know or strongly suspect this is the case. I'm sure that this is a major reason why both Democrats and Republicans have been sinking in approval polls -- and for much the same reasons.
Last edited by Gunnar on Sat Mar 22, 2025 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

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Gunnar wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 1:54 am
To be sure! That has been glaringly obvious to me from the start of Trump's ascendency! It was deeply heartbreaking to me to find out that latent racism appears to still be so much more deeply ingrained in so many more Americans than I had thought. :cry:
The Central Park Five incident is all anyone should need to know to conclude that Trump is a racist.
Gunnar wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:59 am
I think you are right that too many corporate Democrats are also too beholden to wealthy and avaricious billionaire donors. I think many Democrat voters know or strongly suspect this is the case. I'm sure that this is a major reason why both Democrats and Republicans have been sinking in approval polls -- and for much the same reasons.
Yep! Avaricious! Good word.
In other words, the problem of DEI is not inherent in DEI itself but in the injudicious and inflexible way some have chosen to implement it.
I think the “inclusion” part is a rhetorical mistake. It conjures the idea of a kind of nanny state in the minds of many, and that inspires irritation if not outright revulsion. The problem, as I see it, is that we really do need the votes of people we may insult here as being racist, misogynist, or stupid. We can cling to our acronyms and post-colonial and critical theory, wearing it on our sleeves, or we can find cleverer and less tone deaf ways of attracting votes while accomplishing good. I am not sure multiplying acronyms is a prudent strategy.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Some Schmo
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Some Schmo »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 12:49 pm
In other words, the problem of DEI is not inherent in DEI itself but in the injudicious and inflexible way some have chosen to implement it.
I think the “inclusion” part is a rhetorical mistake. It conjures the idea of a kind of nanny state in the minds if many, and that inspires irritation if not outright revulsion. The problem, as I see it, is that we really do need the votes of people we may insult here as being racist, misogynist, or stupid. We can cling to our acronyms and post-colonial and critical theory, wearing it on our sleeves, or we can find cleverer and less tone deaf ways of attracting votes while accomplishing good. I am not sure multiplying acronyms is a prudent strategy.
There is a teacher in Idaho who has a poster in her classroom that says "Everyone is Welcome" and the school admin wants her to take it down. The problem isn't the message itself, so much as the multicolored children's hands that are shown in the poster. The stated reason? "Everyone is Welcome" is "a matter of opinion."

It's impossible to nail down how stupid racism is. I am at a complete loss for how you attract that kind of stupid without being an idiot yourself.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

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Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 2:56 pm
There is a teacher in Idaho who has a poster in her classroom that says "Everyone is Welcome" and the school admin wants her to take it down. The problem isn't the message itself, so much as the multicolored children's hands that are shown in the poster. The stated reason? "Everyone is Welcome" is "a matter of opinion."

It's impossible to nail down how stupid racism is. I am at a complete loss for how you attract that kind of stupid without being an idiot yourself.
Anyone who would ask a teacher to take down an innocuous poster like that is near the core of the problem. Incidents like this one do not inspire hope.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by canpakes »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 2:56 pm
There is a teacher in Idaho who has a poster in her classroom that says "Everyone is Welcome" and the school admin wants her to take it down. The problem isn't the message itself, so much as the multicolored children's hands that are shown in the poster. The stated reason? "Everyone is Welcome" is "a matter of opinion."

It's impossible to nail down how stupid racism is. I am at a complete loss for how you attract that kind of stupid without being an idiot yourself.
This is a good example of how broken the supposed ‘reasoning’ is behind some of these requests:

“Sarah Inama, who has taught world civilization to 6th graders at Lewis and Clark Middle School for four years, was told by school administrators to take down signs stating "everyone in this room is welcome, important, accepted, respected, encouraged, valued, and equal" and "everyone is welcome here." The district claims these signs violate policy requiring classroom content to be neutral.”

How is this poster problematic for the ‘broke’ crowd who tries to interpret everything they don’t personally like as ‘woke’?

Perhaps broke needs to be the word applied to this sort of reaction.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Kishkumen »

canpakes wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:13 pm
Perhaps broke needs to be the word applied to this sort of reaction.
Excellent idea! Very clever.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Some Schmo »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:22 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:13 pm
Perhaps broke needs to be the word applied to this sort of reaction.
Excellent idea! Very clever.
Agreed. I'm going to start spamming 'broke" in that context. Let's see if we can expand the political lexicon with our own word that describes everything decent people hate about the right; try to make the pair of words "woke" and "broke" truly symmetrical.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 12:32 pm
Gunnar wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 1:54 am
To be sure! That has been glaringly obvious to me from the start of Trump's ascendency! It was deeply heartbreaking to me to find out that latent racism appears to still be so much more deeply ingrained in so many more Americans than I had thought. :cry:
The Central Park Five incident is all anyone should need to know to conclude that Trump is a racist.
I have no disagreement at all with that!
Kishkumen wrote:
Gunnar wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:59 am
I think you are right that too many corporate Democrats are also too beholden to wealthy and avaricious billionaire donors. I think many Democrat voters know or strongly suspect this is the case. I'm sure that this is a major reason why both Democrats and Republicans have been sinking in approval polls -- and for much the same reasons.
Yep! Avaricious! Good word.
No disagreement with that either, obviously!
Kishkumen wrote:
Gunnar wrote:In other words, the problem of DEI is not inherent in DEI itself but in the injudicious and inflexible way some have chosen to implement it.
I think the “inclusion” part is a rhetorical mistake. It conjures the idea of a kind of nanny state in the minds of many, and that inspires irritation if not outright revulsion. The problem, as I see it, is that we really do need the votes of people we may insult here as being racist, misogynist, or stupid. We can cling to our acronyms and post-colonial and critical theory, wearing it on our sleeves, or we can find cleverer and less tone deaf ways of attracting votes while accomplishing good. I am not sure multiplying acronyms is a prudent strategy.
Here is where I disagree with you. I don't agree that the "inclusion" part is a rhetorical mistake. It is as important, in my opinion, as the rest of it. The irritation and revulsion over the very idea of inclusion is, in my opinion, essentially the very definition of bigotry; one of the things we need to combat!
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:22 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2025 3:13 pm
Perhaps broke needs to be the word applied to this sort of reaction.
Excellent idea! Very clever.
Add my agreement with that to yours, and Some Schmo's!
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Elon Musk KILLS KIDS IN AFRICA While Crying That People Hate Telsa!!!
Jesse talks about the concerted push by Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Republicans to shield Elon's financial interests from the negative impacts of horrible public opinion.
Musk whines that the public protests against him and Tesla are politically motivated, and that he and DOGE have done nothing wrong and haven't hurt anybody. Yet his cutting off funds to USAID alone, which is an infinitesimally small portion of the U.S. budget will likely mean that an estimated 1,650,000 people could die within a year without American foreign aid for H.I.V. prevention and treatment, which is just one of the humanitarian programs funded by that agency. Preventing these deaths would only have cost 12 cents worth of medicine per day per person. Yet Musk can't bear the thought of cutting off the 8 million or so dollars subsidy he gets every day from the government to help support his various businesses and contracts he has with the U.S. Government!

This quote from the comments section says it all:
My heart is heavy. Elon has more material goods and money than anyone would ever need in a hundred lifetimes. And yet 12 cents a to save a helpless child is too much. How has it come to this?
“When the rich rob the poor, it's called business. When the poor fight back, it's called violence" -Mark Twain
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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