Say my name.

[Morley]

But look: imagine feeling so 'wrong' in a male body that you are willing, even eager, to go through that. That gives one added respect for the ex-guys with the courage to get it done.

Quite some time ago, a trans relative told me that surgery's not always needed. She said that being trans is an identity. It's not always about what bits are in your knickers, as that part is none of our business. And yes, that was an awkward conversation that made me feel like the ass I probably am.

[Res Ipsa]

But look: imagine feeling so 'wrong' in a male body that you are willing, even eager, to go through that. That gives one added respect for the ex-guys with the courage to get it done.

Quite some time ago, a trans relative told me that surgery's not always needed. She said that being trans is an identity. It's not always about what bits are in your knickers, as that part is none of our business. And yes, that was an awkward conversation that made me feel like the ass I probably am.

That's what I've been told by folks in the trans community as well. Different strokes for different folks.

[Jersey Girl]

Not gonna lie. I loved the actor in Juno and Super. What a world we live in. My wife has some trans friends, and it's always difficult for me to get over my whatever it is that creates hostility toward them. I have no idea why I feel that way. As an aside, trans folks within the Islamic tradition (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), are considered to be whatever gender as long as they conform to the social norms of that gender. At least I remember reading something about MTF trans getting that kind of consideration.

I hope you believe me when I say that I read and appreciate probably every post that you put on this board. These posts that you made here? These are solid gold.

In your above you say you had no idea why you feel the way you do. Then in the next post, you come out with it.

It is interesting how deep our programming goes. The trans friends are decent people. They don't hurt anyone. They're nice to other people, so far as I'm aware. They're veterans who served my country. So on and so forth.

What's interesting is my issue of simultaneously holding a sort of innate feeling toward them and then also acting respectful toward them - we went bowling with them a few times and had a few over at our place last holiday season. I feel hypocritical and try to find that sweet spot where I don't feel fake in my interactions with them. I think ultimately it isn't about the gender thing, it's about the surgery for me. Even now just thinking about it fills me with existential dread, so perhaps I'm having a hard time interacting with a former male who had some things removed, and some other things added. I guess now that I'm typing it out, it's almost like, for me, trying to interact with someone who's really into bodymod, but then you're supposed to act like it's the most natural thing in the world and treat them without a hint of being freaked out. Whatever the case may be, I'm definitely interested in following Page's process because I liked him as an actress.

- Doc

You didn't ask for suggestions so of course I am going to offer one. Can you meet with these trans friends and have a real conversation with them? Can you say something like "I feel like I have biases about trans folks. I want to understand who you are and what you think. Would you please hear my questions?"

Cam, I can't think of a single person who when approached by someone who genuinely wants to understand who they are and what they think, that would decline a conversation in that regard.

You already think the surgery somehow skeeves you out or something...I wonder what surgery means to the trans friends? Do they think about it? Do they consider it? Do they accept or reject the idea? Would they give their last dollar and their eye teeth to have it and if so, what would that mean to them? Do they hold differing perspectives and why? Maybe if you understood it from their own perspective what it's like for them, you wouldn't feel skeeved out by it and maybe even find yourself supporting their efforts should they choose to pursue surgery.

[Gunnar]

Until I saw the 5th post in this thread, where the word "trans" first appeared, I had no idea what the OP was even about. There is nothing I can see from the OP itself that would lead me to believe that it was about anything in particular at all, let alone about Transgender people. What clue or clues did I miss in the OP?

This thread reminded me of the movie, The Danish Girl, available on Netflix. It was based on the book of the same name, which, in turn, was based on the life of Einar Wegener, one of the first men to undergo sex reassignment surgery, after which she changed her name to Lili Elbe. It was one of the most poignant stories of unconditional love and acceptance I ever saw. As Einar, he had a loving relationship with his wife, Gerda, a fellow artist, who upon realizing he was unhappy being male and wanted to change his sex, supported him in his desire to become female, even though it would result in the dissolution of their marriage. Lili died of complications from the surgery shortly after the final step of the transformation. If you're interested you can read the real story here: The Real Danish Girl: The Amazing Story of Lili Elbe, the First People to Transition From Male to Female in the Public Eye. Or you can watch the movie adaptation of the story on Netflix.

[Gunnar]

But look: imagine feeling so 'wrong' in a male body that you are willing, even eager, to go through that. That gives one added respect for the ex-guys with the courage to get it done.

Quite some time ago, a trans relative told me that surgery's not always needed. She said that being trans is an identity. It's not always about what bits are in your knickers, as that part is none of our business. And yes, that was an awkward conversation that made me feel like the ass I probably am.

Given how risky the surgery can be, I think that's the option I would choose, if I were transgender. Einar Wegener/Lili Elbe, one of the very first to undergo the procedure died shortly after the final step due to complications resulting from infections and her body's rejection of the newly transplanted womb. Of course, this was before modern immunosuppressive drugs and techniques and antibiotics were available. In the movie, though, she died happy, telling her beloved Gerda, who was at her bedside as she died, that for the first time in her life she finally felt fully herself.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Gunnar,

I think you make some good recommendations. I'll probably have to talk it out with some trans folks to figure out where they're at on their process. After reading your posts I could probably say what it is, for me, that I'm trying to work out.

Basically, evolutionarily speaking, every strategy that's been employed that resulted in people existing today has been successful. I think I'm having not only a cultural response, but perhaps a biological one, too. Basically, if you look at it from a 'life' perspective, where the purpose of 'life' is to reproduce itself, then on a fundamental level removing yourself from that encoded strategy is threatening to me. It shouldn't be, because their lives are their own to live, and more power to them, but what else could explain my visceral reaction at the notion of reassignment surgery or hormone therapy? I also, I think, view traditionalism as a strategy that works, that has resulted in us humans making it this far. Perhaps it's living in a radically transformative society that's also disorienting to me. I feel threatened by so many changes taking place so quickly that on some level my lizard brain worries about our social structures collapsing, and because they've worked thus far, something is going on that sends up red flags in my brain. At the end of the day my ethos is to support people who live their lives on their terms, and that every citizen of this country has an inalienable right to equal treatment under the law and basic respect when interacting with one another as long as they're respectful of others' rights.

Anyway, for whatever reason, Elliot Page's transformation kind of stuck with me and I've been trying to figure out all the issues surrounding his choice that caused me to think about the issue as a result. I appreciate your input.

- Doc

[Gunnar]

Anyway, for whatever reason, Elliot Page's transformation kind of stuck with me and I've been trying to figure out all the issues surrounding his choice that caused me to think about the issue as a result. I appreciate your input.

- Doc

I fully understand how you feel about this. I'm sure that neither you nor I will ever fully understand what it is like to be afflicted with gender dysphoria. I feel pretty sure that if I were transgender, I would be terrified at the prospect of undergoing the risky surgical procedures required for complete transformation.

[Dr Exiled]

It's a cross that we should allow those who bear it to bear it with some sort of normalcy, treating it as if it is not a thing, really. I've represented a couple of transgender clients in the past and they confided in me that they just wanted to live their lives like anyone else would, without the stigma. Biology is a crazy and wonderful thing at the same time and let's get beyond it, without religious ninnies telling us how to define whatever based on the invisible.

[Gunnar]

It's a cross that we should allow those who bear it to bear it with some sort of normalcy, treating it as if it is not a thing, really. I've represented a couple of transgender clients in the past and they confided in me that they just wanted to live their lives like anyone else would, without the stigma. Biology is a crazy and wonderful thing at the same time and let's get beyond it, without religious ninnies telling us how to define whatever based on the invisible.

Amen to that!