What will/did Mueller say?

[_mikwut]

Racism is taking that biological reaction we all have to seeing someone different and, rather than putting that reaction in its place, using it as an excuse to make a judgment about different people without getting to know who they are. It often manifests itself in idiotic generalizations about people from other cultures while ignoring the problems of your own.

This leaves a lot to be desired to me. In the immigration discussion don't both sides share this biological reaction? So aren't we importing racism as well, if not, why? because you seemingly claim it to be rooted biologically. And so how do we force "getting to know who they are" on both sides?

There seems to me to be a failure to at least attempt to separate culture from race in your definition. And "different" is so broad. Am I a racist if I snub my nose at those with less wealth than me, it's clearly a difference? Even if they are white like me but blue eyed unlike me? Is that biologically basic too, or is that just learned assholism?

Gosh I could go on but there just seems a general theme that the use of the word has become very difficult to discern the pragmatic utility of its of use. Do we just keep calling each other racist and expect positive outcomes? What are you suggesting or are you just throwing your hands in the air and saying there are so many damn racists!!! Is that racist against racists? Should I get to know them?

mikwut

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[_mikwut]

E -

There are technical measures of racial resentment that do find Trump supporters as a group contain a lot of people who fall quite high on the distribution with measures of higher racial resentment correlating strongly with likelihood of supporting Trump. So, that's a thing. And even if that weren't the case, Trump is a fairly vicious racist who promotes racist rhetoric and employs racist people in his administration whose racist views inform their policy stances.

Then stop telling me how you think the sausage gets made and just show me the sausage. What are the policies that are the outcome of the racist ingredients you clearly see?

I'll get to the rest of your post when I we can find agreement here.

mikwut

[_Some Schmo]

This leaves a lot to be desired to me. In the immigration discussion don't both sides share this biological reaction? So aren't we importing racism as well, if not, why? because you seemingly claim it to be rooted biologically.

The difference, as I said, is what you do with your initial reaction.

It's an attitude. I think we both damn well know what racism is. It's fashionable, however, to attempt to parse the meaning right out of the word to avoid dealing with the problem.

There seems to me to be a failure to at least attempt to separate culture from race in your definition. And "different" is so broad. Am I a racist if I snub my nose at those with less wealth than me, it's clearly a difference? Even if they are white like me but blue eyed unlike me? Is that biologically basic too, or is that just learned assholism?

Do you really need anyone to explain to you what "different" means in the context of a discussion on racism?

Gosh I could go on but there just seems a general theme that the use of the word has become very difficult to discern the pragmatic utility of its of use.

That's because you've chosen to obfuscate its meaning. It's not like some mystery word.

Do we just keep calling each other racist and expect positive outcomes?

If getting it out of your system is a positive outcome, then yes.

What are you suggesting or are you just throwing your hands in the air and saying there are so many damn racists!!! Is that racist against racists? Should I get to know them?

This is just silly. Are racists a race?

[_mikwut]

Perfume,

My point that your missing is that as humans we are extremely complicated. Of course if you show me a skin head brainwashed from youth into the superiority of the white race the word racism comes to mind. As the word trickles further and further down into everyday societal occurrences both anecdotal and political as well as opinions I am not so certain about it or its pragmatic value. It becomes a mash soup of so many issues, ideas, fears, unknowns that simply acting in a pragmatic way is scorned with racism. So as I have repeated why shouldn't be more interested in legislation that takes the reality of racism into account but allows for the free discussion of the other issues involved. Can you tell me the legislation that has happened that is racist because of the racism of Trump and his associates?

mikwut

[_Some Schmo]

My point that your missing is that as humans we are extremely complicated. Of course if you show me a skin head brainwashed from youth into the superiority of the white race the word racism comes to mind. As the word trickles further and further down into everyday societal occurrences both anecdotal and political as well as opinions I am not so certain about it or its pragmatic value.

My guess is that your view of racism is narrow and reserved for the most extreme cases.

It becomes a mash soup of so many issues, ideas, fears, unknowns that simply acting in a pragmatic way is scorned with racism.

Give me an example where acting pragmatically is scorned with racism.

So as I have repeated why shouldn't be more interested in legislation that takes the reality of racism into account but allows for the free discussion of the other issues involved.

I've read this several times and have no idea how to discern the meaning of your question.

Do you imagine we here in this forum have control over legislation?

Can you tell me the legislation that has happened that is racist because of the racism of Trump and his associates?

The attempt at a Muslim ban springs to mind. Of course, people want to claim that's more religious bigotry than racism, but Trump doesn't seem to know there are white Muslims. He targeted specific countries.

The attempt at voter suppression laws and tactics are certainly rooted in racism.

And of course, we've got this white supremacist mass shooter using Trump quotes in his manifesto. Legislation isn't the only thing influenced by Trump and the GOP's institutional racism.

[_Some Schmo]

And forget about legislation. Do you want your kids emulating the President saying racist things? Do you want to have to excuse that behavior, explain it away? If you don't think there's an issue just with the example Trump is setting as president, you're part of the problem, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if you're the type of person who doesn't truly appreciate how racism manifests itself.

There are people who are actually able to hold two opposing ideas in their head at the same time:
- We live in a post-racism society
- We have a real problem with "reverse-racism"

That tells you everything you need to know about the ability of a certain segment of the population to determine what's real.

[_canpakes]

Hello canpakes,

I think you would find more meat on those bones than me, but, yes I can see it if I squint hard enough. I do not see it limited only to racism and I see many other overlapping and quite possibly overriding issues that are intermeshed within each quote.

mikwut -

Thanks for your reply. You might be surprised by what I perceive to be meat on the bones, or none. I don't necessarily interpret all of those statements to be racist, although all are problematic in some fashion, and none appropriate for a national 'news' platform, in my opinion. But they are a good sampling by which to better gauge where you are coming from, as regard the discussion.

[_honorentheos]

My point that your missing is that as humans we are extremely complicated. Of course if you show me a skin head brainwashed from youth into the superiority of the white race the word racism comes to mind. As the word trickles further and further down into everyday societal occurrences both anecdotal and political as well as opinions I am not so certain about it or its pragmatic value.

My guess is that your view of racism is narrow and reserved for the most extreme cases.

This raised a different question. That being, is all racism equal? Meaning there is a bright line one crosses and at that point it's all the same result and consequence? Or is there some judgement required to differentiate between biases, prejudices and hate? Is it a case of arguing a narrow definition against painting with a broad brush and not allowing for other considerations not contained in those two positions?

[_Some Schmo]

This raised a different question. That being, is all racism equal? Meaning there is a bright line one crosses and at that point it's all the same result and consequence? Or is there some judgement required to differentiate between biases, prejudices and hate? Is it a case of arguing a narrow definition against painting with a broad brush and not allowing for other considerations not contained in those two positions?

If we think of racism as an attitude, then no, not all racism is equal. Some people's attitude is worse than others. You can be more racist toward one group than another. A worse attitude will lead to worse behaviors.

Racism isn't a binary on/off switch. I think you can work on your attitude and become less racist over time, but only if you acknowledge your racist attitude.

In my younger days, I would make comments about Asian drivers. Over time, I realized it was a broad generalization and therefore BS. As soon as something like that pops out of my mouth, it's worth taking the time to think, Well that's a crappy thing to say. Stop saying stuff like that. It's not true. If I make that correction, I become a little less racist.

As I said up-thread, we all have reactions to people who appear different from us. Racism is when you use that reaction to feed a BS attitude rather than attempt to correct your misconceptions.