Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

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_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

This is an interesting analysis.

https://judithcurry.com/2018/10/18/rema ... g-of-1-5c/

A close reading of Chapters 1 and 2 of the IPCC Special Report on Global Warming of 1.5°C (SR15) reveals some interesting changes from the IPCC 5th Assessment Report (AR5), and other science-relevant statements. This article highlights statements in SR15 relating to carbon emission budgets for meeting the 1.5°C and 2°C targets.

It seems fairly extraordinary to me that the AR5 post-2010 carbon budget for 1.5°C, which was only published four years ago, has in effect been now been increased by ~700 GtCO2 – equal to 21st century emissions to date – despite SR15’s projections of future warming being based very largely on the transient climate response to cumulative emissions (TCRE) range exhibited by the models used in AR5.

Key points

- The SR15 estimates of the carbon budgets that will allow us to remain within the 1.5°C and 2°C targets are far larger than those given in AR5 – over five times as high from end 2017 for a 66% probability of not exceeding 1.5°C warming.

- SR15 switches the measure of past (up to 2010) warming for the 1.5°C and 2°C targets from near-surface air temperatures (SAT) everywhere (as in AR5) to a blend of near-surface air temperatures over land and sea-surface water temperatures (SST).

- SR15 bases its estimates of the relationship of future warming to future CO2 emissions very largely on the behaviour of the current generation of Earth system models (ESMs), as used for AR5. However, unlike AR5 it does not do so directly. Instead, it assumes a fixed probabilistic relationship between post-2010 cumulative CO2 emissions and the warming they cause, and derives (using simplified climate models) an allowance for warming from other causes.

- SR15 ignores ESM simulation estimates of warming to date, instead estimating it using observational data.

- The resulting SR15 estimate of the post-1875 cumulative CO2 emissions that would give a 50% probability of meeting the 1.5°C target is approximately 720 GtCO2 larger than per AR5, partially offset by a 210 GtCO2 increase in estimated 1876–2010 emissions, giving a net increase of 510 GtCO2 for the post-2010 carbon budget.

- Approximately 180 GtCO2 of the ~720 GtCO2 increase in the post-1875 budget is due to lower projected post-2010 warming relative to post-2010 cumulative CO2 The lower projected warming appears to be because of two factors:

-- The TCRE value used in SR15 matches the average of the full set of ESMs in AR5; however the budgets calculated for AR5 were based on a subset of ESMs that had a higher average TCRE value.

-- Lower non-CO2 warming is projected in SR15 than in AR5


So, the IPCC just expanded the CO2 budget by 5 times? FIVE TIMES? For a 66% probability of doom. ROFL

SR15 explains that ‘The IPCC has traditionally defined changes in observed global mean surface temperature (GMST) as a weighted average of near-surface air temperature (SAT) changes over land and sea surface temperature (SST) changes over the oceans’. Consistent with that, the SR15 1.5°C remaining carbon budgets are based on anthropogenic warming up to 2006–2015 of 0.87°C, which is based on surface temperature datasets that mostly combine near-surface air temperature over land and sea surface temperature over the (open) ocean.

Average global warming simulated over the historical period (1850 to date) by the ESMs used in AR5 exceeds that shown by the observational temperature records used in SR15.[iii] It is likely that part of that difference in warming is due to the ESMs using SAT as the measure of temperature over the ocean as well as land, and to incomplete global coverage of observations. The importance of this issue is reflected by SR15’s statement that ‘the use of blended SAT/SST data and incomplete coverage together can give approximately 0.2°C less warming from the 19th century to the present relative to the use of complete global-average SAT.’

...

Although the reasons for deciding to measure warming for the purposes of the 1.5°C and 2°C targets by combining SAT over land with SST over ocean (rather than SAT everywhere, as in AR5) are not entirely clear, it is in my view a sensible decision scientifically. Surface air temperature over the ocean has been (and still is) less well measured than SST, and also has much less direct relevance to humans and the biosphere than does SST. The change has the effect of making the remaining carbon budgets larger. However, SR15 is inconsistent in applying its decision to use a weighted average of SAT and SST: it only does so in respect of past warming; future warming is in effect still projected using a fully SAT-based measure.


Lord.

My interest was piqued by the statement that, although:

[i]considerably uncertainties remain, there is high agreement across various lines of evidence assessed in this report that the remaining carbon budget for 1.5°C or 2°C would be larger than the estimates at the time of the AR5.[x]


How much larger? Well, later in the section, SR15 says this:

This assessment finds a larger remaining budget from the 2006-2015 base period than the 1.5°C and 2°C remaining budgets inferred from AR5 from the start of 2011, [which were] approximately 1000 GtCO2 for the 2°C (66% of model simulations) and approximately 400 GtCO2 for the 1.5°C budget (66% of model simulations).[xi] In contrast, this assessment finds approximately 1600 GtCO2 for the 2°C (66th TCRE percentile) and approximately 860 GtCO2 for the 1.5°C budget (66th TCRE percentile) from 2011.

So, the remaining carbon budget from 1 January 2011 for a 66% probability of keeping below 1.5°C has been increased by 460 GtCO2, from 400 to 860 GtCO2 – more than doubled. Deducting the estimated 290 GtCO2 emissions during the 2011 to 2017 period,[xii] the change from 1 January 2018 is from 110 GtCO2 to 570 GtCO2 – over five times as high.


This is damning. I applaud them improving the stability of their data sources, that's laudable and exactly what should happen in the course of refining methods and working through the science towards greater understanding. But this behind-the-scenes reality does not jive with their rhetoric and puts a huge spotlight on how immature this science is.

As an aside, the most sophisticated TCRE study cited in AR5 was Gillett et al. (2013)[xv] – one of the two key observational-constrained, scaling-based ‘detection and attribution’ studies underlying the main AR5 human-caused warming finding.[xvi] Gillett et al. scaled CMIP5 ESM patterns of temperature responses to greenhouse gas warming so that they were consistent with the observed warming and found a TCRE range of 0.7–2.0°C, with a mean of 1.35°C. [b]The range adopted in SR15 has a 22% higher central value and a 25% higher upper bound than this observationally-constrained range.[/b]


Politics. Not a science report, a political report.

SR15 claims that Figure 2.3 (a version of which is reproduced below as Figure 1) illustrates that ‘the change since AR5 is, in very large part, due to the application of a more recent observed baseline to the historic temperature change and cumulative emissions’.

In my view this statement in SR15 lends itself to misinterpretation. A naïve interpretation of this statement is that both observed warming and observed emissions were lower than projected (by ESMs, under the RCP8.5 scenario) in AR5 over the period since then, with both of these factors contributing to an increase in the remaining carbon budgets consistent with 1.5°C or 2°C warming.

In fact, observed emissions between 2005 (the observational baseline date for emissions per the RCP scenarios) and the end of 2017 were almost identical to those per RCP8.5. And, if the ‘blended-masked’ CMIP5 models’ temperature (thin black line in Figure 1) is a fair comparison with the global temperature observations used in SR15 (thin blue line in Figure 1), then there is little difference between models and observations over that period.

Image


I wonder how many actually understand what he is explaining? IPCC wants you to think the models are just fine, that warming decreased because emissions decreased, but in truth emissions increased at the same time warming was decreasing.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Back to the Gish Gallop. Who is Nic Lewis and what's his track record of being right on climate issues?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_canpakes
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _canpakes »

Water Dog wrote:At this very moment, polar ice is reported to be higher than ever, over the past 10,000 years.

‘Polar’ ice? Not quite, when you take into account arctic and Antarctic data.

You posted a graph only for the south polar region. What about the other pole?

Sea ice extent for September 2018 fell just above the long-term linear trend line. The linear rate of sea ice decline for September is 82,300 square kilometers (32,000 square miles) per year, or 12.8 percent per decade relative to the 1981 to 2010 average.

A look back at the summer melt season:

Total sea ice extent reached record lows in January and February, and stayed at second lowest from March through May, largely due to extremely low extent in the Bering Sea. However, the September extent tied for sixth lowest in the record, slightly above the long-term trend line.

Melt began slowly over most of the western Arctic Ocean and the East Siberian Sea. As a result, despite June temperatures that were slightly above average (Figure 4a), the rate of ice loss in June of 52,800 square kilometers (20,000 square miles) per day was slightly below the 1981 to 2010 average of 56,300 square kilometers (22,000 square miles) per day. A cloudy and cool July followed, especially over the East Siberian Sea and stretching westward towards the Kara Sea. In response, ice was particularly slow to retreat in the East Siberian Sea. Indeed, July ranked as the ninth coldest July since 1979.

Puzzling in this regard is that the July ice decline rate of 105,400 square kilometers (41,000 square miles) per day, was considerably faster than the 1981 to 2010 average decline of 86,800 square kilometers (34,000 square miles) per day. Only in 2007 and 2009 did July have faster rates of ice loss. This is counter intuitive, and likely illustrates the importance of atmospheric processes in transporting ice northwards, and the role of ocean warmth in melting ice.

While July is usually the warmest month of the year, air temperatures this August exceeded those in July. This has only happened once before in the last 70 years, according to analysis of data from the National Centers for Environmental Prediction/National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCEP/NCAR) Reanalyses. August air temperatures at the 925 hPa level were up to 5 degrees Celsius (9 degrees Fahrenheit) above average in the Laptev Sea. Still, the August ice loss of 57,500 square kilometers (22,000 square miles) per day was nearly identical to the 1981 to 2010 average decline. The large tongue of ice that had been persisting within the East Siberian Sea started to melt out. Above average air temperatures continued through early September, especially in the East Siberian Sea, which helped to further melt sea ice that had persisted all summer. By the end of the melt season, about 267,000 square kilometers (103,000 square miles) of ice remained in this sector. The least amount of sea ice within the East Siberian Sea was recorded in 2007 (2,980 square kilometers or 1,150 square miles). As discussed above, the late date of the sea ice minimum and the near-zero change in ice extent from September 19 to 23 reflects the influence of the very warm conditions associated with the high pressure ridge.

A patch of sea ice remained through the summer in the Beaufort Sea, northeast of Point Barrow, consisting of first-year ice interspersed with floes of more resistant multiyear ice. This patch was no longer detected in the passive microwave imagery once it became too sparse. However, ice was still evident through the end of the melt season in visible imagery from the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) (Figure 4b) and was charted in operational analyses from the Multisensor Analyzed Sea Ice Extent (MASIE).

In short, the reasons why September sea ice extent for 2018 ended up as sixth lowest, well above 2007 and 2012, remains to be fully determined. Melt onset was somewhat late, but despite cool conditions the July ice loss was rather rapid. The ice loss rate in August was near average. Further research is warranted.


https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Meanwhile, Antarctic land ice mass may be in the rise but sea ice is decreasing dramatically.
_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

canpakes wrote:Meanwhile, Antarctic land ice mass may be in the rise but sea ice is decreasing dramatically.

Really?

The Antarctic sea ice extent has been slowly increasing contrary to expected trends due to global warming and results from coupled climate models. After a record high extent in 2012 the extent was even higher in 2014 when the magnitude exceeded 20 × 106 km2 for the first time during the satellite era. … [T]he trend in sea ice cover is strongly influenced by the trend in surface temperature [cooling].


https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10 ... -16-0408.1
_canpakes
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _canpakes »

Water Dog wrote:
canpakes wrote:Meanwhile, Antarctic land ice mass may be in the rise but sea ice is decreasing dramatically.

Really?


Things are not looking good.

Total sea ice extent for the month of July 2018 was the eighth lowest of the 40-year satellite record dating back to 1979. The total ice extent was about 0.3 million square kilometers higher than in 2016 and 2017, and more than 0.5 million square kilometers above the minimum July extent observed in 2012. However, the July extent was below the values observed in 2015 and in all years prior to 2007. The value for July 2018 is approximately 0.3 million square kilometers above the linear trend line, which corresponds to a loss of about 7.2% per decade. By contrast, July extents of 2016 and 2017 fell almost exactly on the trend line (Figure 6).


https://www.arcus.org/sipn/sea-ice-outlook/2018/august
Last edited by Guest on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Water Dog wrote:
canpakes wrote:Meanwhile, Antarctic land ice mass may be in the rise but sea ice is decreasing dramatically.

Really?

The Antarctic sea ice extent has been slowly increasing contrary to expected trends due to global warming and results from coupled climate models. After a record high extent in 2012 the extent was even higher in 2014 when the magnitude exceeded 20 × 106 km2 for the first time during the satellite era. … [T]he trend in sea ice cover is strongly influenced by the trend in surface temperature [cooling].


https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10 ... -16-0408.1


Denier Dog strikes again. If only there were a site that monitors sea ice extent on a day to day basis. Oh, wait. https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

The latest update is from October 1. It says:

Antarctic sea ice may have reached its maximum extent on October 2, 2018, at 18.15 million square kilometers (7.01 million square miles). If the downward trend continues, it will be the fourth lowest maximum in the satellite record—higher than the 1986, 2002, and 2017


Fourth. Lowest. Maximum.

I can't believe Dog is really this stupid.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

If Dog doesn't like the dishonesty of his postings pointed out, then why oh why does he keep doing the same thing over and over.

He posts this graph:

Image

And then he claims:
At this very moment, polar ice is reported to be higher than ever, over the past 10,000 years.


The graph doesn't show "polar ice". It doesn't show arctic ice at all. It doesn't show land ice in the antarctic. It doesn't even show sea ice in all of the Antarctic. It only is a graph that relates to West Antarctic Sea ice. And it's not even a graph of how much ice there is in that location. It's a graph of a proxy for the melting of glaciers.

Doesn't show how much ice there is.
Doesn't show the entire polar regions.

There's a reason why Water Dog won't respond to me, and it has nothing to do with civility. It's because over and over again I show how what he posts is false and misleading. He's either a gibbering idiot, which I don't believe, or he's fundamentally dishonest. Take your pick.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

Someone who doesn't understand the different between arctic and antarctic is calling me stupid?

Image

Image

In stark contrast to the sharp decline in Arctic sea ice, there has been a steady increase in ice extent around Antarctica during the last three decades, especially in the Weddell and Ross seas. In general, climate models do not to capture this trend … This comparison shows that the summer sea ice edge was between 1.0 and 1.7° further north in the Weddell Sea during this period but that ice conditions were surprisingly comparable to the present day [during 1897-1917] in other sectors.


http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/68171/
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Water Dog wrote:Someone who doesn't understand the different between arctic and antarctic is calling me stupid?

Image

Image

In stark contrast to the sharp decline in Arctic sea ice, there has been a steady increase in ice extent around Antarctica during the last three decades, especially in the Weddell and Ross seas. In general, climate models do not to capture this trend … This comparison shows that the summer sea ice edge was between 1.0 and 1.7° further north in the Weddell Sea during this period but that ice conditions were surprisingly comparable to the present day [during 1897-1917] in other sectors.


http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/68171/


Nope. Somebody who understands the difference between "Polar Ice" and "Glacial Meltwater Around the West Antarctic Peninsula" and who knows the difference between 2014 and 2018 is calling you dishonest.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

Res Ipsa wrote:Nope. Somebody who understands the difference between "Polar Ice" and "Glacial Meltwater Around the West Antarctic Peninsula" and who knows the difference between 2014 and 2018 is calling you dishonest.

I made a very clear and obvious point about processes vs systems and then bring up the fact that antarctic ice has steadily increased. I specifically say, getting warmer in one area, cooler in another. No dishonesty whatsoever. I couldn't have been more clear. You and pakes then humorously respond to articles about the antarctic with links to stuff about the arctic. ROFL. You just slipped on and fell in a pile of your own crap. How, embarrassing. As usual, instead of admit your gaff and move on, double down. It's an easy enough thing to confuse after all, the words are similar. Honest mistake, but nope, RI is never wrong about anything. When he makes a mistake, it's because I was dishonest. He is, without question, the superior man. And this right here is why I won't engage you further.

TBML

Is there anything else to even talk about? I feel like I've made my point pretty clear. I suppose we can all just agree to disagree. If anybody else has anything new, I'll be watching. RI's venom is unwelcome. If someone like Themis wants to engage in a polite discussion, I'm game.
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