Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't real

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _Res Ipsa »

EAllusion wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Ceeboo, do you believe that your God had the power to create a universe governed by laws that would have permitted the evolution of cellular mitosis without God’s intervention?


I think his skepticism here is aimed at the evolution of meiosis. Though, not really, because if he understood meiosis, I'm not sure he'd be asking the questions he is. So it's more skepticism in the evolution of the anatomy of sexual reproduction in vertebrates.


Maybe I misread, but I thought he included both in his list of impossible things.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Chap
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _Chap »

Ceeboo wrote: I have no issues with you sharing your opinion with me that the evolutionary processes involved in sexual reproduction is not nearly as far-fetched as I think it is. But to be clear with you, I don't think it's just far-fetched, I think it's completely impossible (preposterous in fact).


Chap wrote:
And the most frightening thing for evolutionary biologists is that none of them has ever asked the obvious question of how sexual reproduction could possibly have evolved.

And now, on an obscure ex-Mormon discussion board, the gallant Ceeboo steps forth and asks the killer questions. As a result, the whole rickety structure of evolutionary 'science' will surely collapse before our eyes, amidst anguished howls of "Why didn't we think of that before? WHY???"

Oh wait ... I see that the Ceeboo haters of the Deep State have already swung into action. They have not only cobbled together a lengthy Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... production

... but they have also, in a typically underhand way, started to insert entries in library catalogues of books on the evolution of sexuality supposedly published years ago! Pathetic, no?

They've even put one on line, supposedly published in 1978 by Cambridge University Press:

The Evolution of Sex
John Maynard Smith
Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1978

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... production

If we keep an eye open, we shall see dozens of fake articles and books making their appearance. But it will take more than that to maintain the ragged shreds of scientific plausibility which are all they have left after Ceeboo has blown their cover.



Ceeboo wrote:Chap,

You are one of the many who are absolutely convinced - no problems there. I think (?) we can still be friendly even if I am not as convinced as you are, no? After all, I am a fairly good guy who takes care of my family, treats my fellow humans with kindness and respect and I am a productive tax paying citizen. I assume you are the same.

So, given the much ore important stuff (like I listed above) I don't think that my personal skepticism around Darwinian evolution should prevent us (you and I) from living amongst one another on this earth. In my mind, this topic is fascinating and no matter what you believe about it (or I believe about it) it's still fascinating in my opinion and I enjoy discussing it.

That's all I have for you.


Look: it's like this.

Driving while under the influence of alcohol is anti-social, and is seen as a moral fault, since it endangers others.

Expressing opinions on important topics while under the influence of a degree of ignorance that could be easily removed by a little serious study is also anti-social, and a moral fault, since it exposes others to being misled.

In your case, it would only have taken a glance at the Wikipedia article on 'Evolution of sexual reproduction' for you to learn that sexual reproduction is a much more basic matter than males putting penises inside females, which you profess to find so puzzling: it can happen even at the level of one-celled living things, by the direct exchange of genetic material.

And have you never heard that even at the level of complex organisms, male and female fish don't need to copulate at all in order to reproduce? The female lays her eggs and the male ejaculates sperm into the water nearby?

The problem is that, as you say "enjoy discussing" this stuff, but not enough to study any of the huge amount of serious but accessible books and articles that are available out there and would enable you to understand what you are talking about, at least more than you do now. But you can't be bothered, and so you go on and on coming back to post your ignorant and confused stuff over and over again. And some poor sap will read it, and end up believing nonsense.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_EAllusion
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _EAllusion »

The insect world actually has a lot of very intricate "lock and key" sexual organs. If not grasping co-evolution in mammalian genitals is blowing his mind, I wonder how he'd react to the weird and horrifying world of insect sex.
_mikwut
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _mikwut »

If I were Ceeboo I would take the recommendations of his interlocutors but I would add a few things as well.

First, one of the philosophical questions that often gets ignored in these skeptic believer evolution debates is the nature of naturalism itself. Let's say Ceeboo does as Chap requests and reads up on evolution and actually says like he has in the past on other issues, you know what I was wrong - the evidence for evolution is very strong? I don't understand what that would have to do with his belief in God? Because an attitudinal or perspectival question still remains. Is naturalism itself benign? Or, yah I'll use the term here for emphasis, magical? There is a rational impasse respecting this philosophical question, because it is attitudinal and perspectival, not narrowly evidential toward one way of thinking.

Atheism views evolution from the benign naturalist lens, looking at all of natural life as if it were just brute fact. G.K. Chesterton made the observation in his brilliant essay, Ethics of Elfland, (For the skeptics, who might find Chesterton’s reasoning unscientific they might find it interesting that it was included by Martin Gardner, the former editor of Scientific American, in his anthology, Great Essays in Science, along with essays by Darwin, Eddington, Fermi, and Einstein.

His point boils down to, is naturalism benign? Trees bearing fruit, flowers being beautiful, love existing aren't logical truths or mathematical brute facts, they are existing things that aren't logically necessary, they could be imagined otherwise. They don't have to be the way they are like 3 is greater than 2. We cannot say why an egg can turn into a chicken any more than we can say why a princess can turn into a frog. He calls this, “This elementary wonder,” He argues that enchantment, wonder, the magic of appearing in this world is a metaphysical reality. The atheist calls an egg turning into a chicken benign and a princess turning into a frog magical. But naturalism isn't benign and it isn't conceptually different than the princess and the frog no matter how much time is added. To make his point in reverse he argues that if a benign naturalist were to find himself in a magical filled world consisting of trees that bear burning candlesticks, plants that can sing enchanting songs, a princess that turned into a frog, fairies and enchanted creatures the naturalist would benignly pursue his methodological naturalism in the same way as our current world. Nothing would be different to him. But to the one who doesn't give in to the benign the magical is emphasized.

So, if I were Ceeboo I would argue so what to the evidence of naturalism and evolution in the benign view, what is wrong you guys that you don't see the magic of the natural world and what it can imply? There exists a wealth of evidence that evolution isn't only supported by historical contingency, adaptation and chance mutation but also by natural law. Physicist Jeremy England has proposed that life may be the result of law and inevitable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka8573QQKW4 So we don't necessarily have to accept the happy accident idea of life, but that it was inevitable. Self organization is a law built into nature, the very laws of physics themselves help for life to inevitably arise. Many molecular and chemical processes necessary for life are just law, self organization, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12468283. These inevitable processes of evolution can rationally be viewed in more than one way, again benign or enchanted?

We further see in evolution the same morphology appearing separately, not by a one off mutation or chance process. Nature appears law given so the same features in biology appear although not related. For example, most of us are aware of the African cheetah, but most of us are unaware that there existed an American Cheetah that was almost identical in structure and form. These examples of convergent evolution are so numerous they can't all be listed, Life as we know it seems to be just the fabric of nature. Law like. A hypothesis that if you rewound the tape all over again life as we know it would inevitably arise. Alien planets would be inhabited by not some foreign imagination of life, but the inevitable life as we know it and has emerged. Where do those life giving enchanting law like abilities come from? That question just returns us to the benign or enchanted philosophical question that doesn't rationally allow for the one or the other to be eliminated.

So, if I were Ceeboo I would just learn how enchanted evolution is and keep telling his interlocutors what makes them so certain naturalism is so boringly benign?

mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
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"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_SteelHead
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _SteelHead »

I would say nature is not benign, it is indifferent.

A fertilized chicken egg become a chicken is a natural process, a frog becoming a princess save for rewriting the DNA would be a different kind of thing.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_mikwut
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _mikwut »

Hi Steelhead,

Indifferent might be just as good a word for my argument. Thank you.

A fertilized chicken egg become a chicken is a natural process, a frog becoming a princess save for rewriting the DNA would be a different kind of thing,


The point being made is our attitude, our wonder, our view of any natural process. What do you mean when you say "natural"?

mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_SteelHead
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _SteelHead »

The process for a fertilized cell inside a chicken egg to develop into a chick is written into its DNA, barring abnormalities and outside conditions it will follow what it is encoded to do. A frog becoming a human princess is not.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_mikwut
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _mikwut »

Steelhead,

I don't know what to say to the obvious. Of course what you wrote is agreed on. What point are you making that you believe contradicts my initial post?

mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_SteelHead
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _SteelHead »

I guess I might be mis-parsing:

This elementary wonder,” He argues that enchantment, wonder, the magic of appearing in this world is a metaphysical reality. The atheist calls an egg turning into a chicken benign and a princess turning into a frog magical. But naturalism isn't benign and it isn't conceptually different than the princess and the frog no matter how much time is added.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_SteelHead
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Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea

Post by _SteelHead »

**dupe**
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
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