Does character still matter in politics?

[ceeboo]

Projection, the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds.

Where have I suggested that you're not thinking for yourself? On the contrary, I think the ideas you've expressed here are very much your own.

I was referring to the "BS insults" that you conveniently applied to me. I went back to find the BS insults you leveled against me in the thread, but the post seems to have vanished!

Weird.

[Kishkumen]

This depends, entirely, on who/what you're "calling out." If you're calling about the behavior of an individual, that sounds reasonable to me. Have you seen me challenge you about the countless times you have called out Trump on this board/in this thread?

If you're "calling out" republicans (an enormous number of individual people with a wide variety of personal beliefs and personal reasons that they voted for Trump in 2016, 2020, and will no doubt be voting for him again in 2024) as being people who, for example, "don't care", then you're not standing on rational ground as you "call out" - Rather, you're using ridiculous negative rhetoric that is extremely divisive to an already very divided country.

Ah, OK. So, I see what you are saying. Reflecting on it, I tend to say Republicans here because I assume there comes a point at which one refuses to go along with the nonsense and thus chooses to disaffiliate. Kinda like I did in the early 2000s after the invasion of Iraq. I found that move so catastrophically stupid, and the means to get us in it so ethically dubious, that I registered as an Independent very soon thereafter. That was my ahah moment, so to speak.

There are also similar reasons why I have remained an Independent and have not registered as a Democrat. I don’t think they are nearly as upsetting or dangerous, to me, but I have a problem with the groupthink that party affiliation tends to inspire.

I would rather say Republicans writ large because I, as I said earlier, see daylight between people’s party affiliation and their individual core identity. I would prefer that people stop treating these parties like their tribes. I am not saying, “ceeboo, how could you X when Y is the case,” because I am not going to attack you personally when I have not met you face to face and acquainted myself with your actual thinking on things.

I always felt free not to identify with the group. I want other people to feel similarly free. I guess I just don’t feel burnt up when someone attacks a group identity. I feel free not to own that if the statement does not apply. If others do feel that way, I would advocate that they not. If you feel your political party is your identity or your tribe, please, rethink your attachment to it. (I do not address this to you personally, ceeboo.)

[Morley]

Where have I suggested that you're not thinking for yourself? On the contrary, I think the ideas you've expressed here are very much your own.

I was referring to the "BS insults" that you conveniently applied to me. I went back to find the BS insults you leveled against me in the thread, but the post seems to have vanished!

Weird.

Weird, indeed. I wish I knew what you were talking about.

Again: I do think you are speaking for yourself.

Do you have an answer to the substance of my post regarding labeling and the Civil Rights movement?

[ceeboo]

I was referring to the "BS insults" that you conveniently applied to me. I went back to find the BS insults you leveled against me in the thread, but the post seems to have vanished!

Weird.

Weird, indeed. I wish I knew what you were talking about.

You don't know what I am talking about? I don't believe you. After you delivered your personal insults to me, you edited your post and now it has vanished. I don't really care, I was just noting your exercise in projection.

Do you have an answer to the substance of my post?

No - I decide what and who I reply to, and how much effort I put into said replies, based on what I believe is good faith or the lack of good faith, of the questioner.

[Morley]

Weird, indeed. I wish I knew what you were talking about.

You don't know what I am talking about? I don't believe you. After you delivered your personal insults to me, you edited your post and now it has vanished. I don't really care, I was just noting your projection.

That? There were no personal insults included in that post. If I remember, I responded to your expressed opinion as a human, an American, and as a Christian. A few minutes later, I decided that they were a little too harsh. Deleting them was my retraction. I don't understand your problem.

[Morley]

No - I decide what and who I reply to, and how much effort I put into said replies, based on what I believe is good faith or the lack of good faith, of the questioner.

As does everyone, everywhere, every time. Sometimes, people even stop responding because they realize that their arguments don't hold water.

[ceeboo]

This depends, entirely, on who/what you're "calling out." If you're calling about the behavior of an individual, that sounds reasonable to me. Have you seen me challenge you about the countless times you have called out Trump on this board/in this thread?

If you're "calling out" republicans (an enormous number of individual people with a wide variety of personal beliefs and personal reasons that they voted for Trump in 2016, 2020, and will no doubt be voting for him again in 2024) as being people who, for example, "don't care", then you're not standing on rational ground as you "call out" - Rather, you're using ridiculous negative rhetoric that is extremely divisive to an already very divided country.

Ah, OK. So, I see what you are saying. Reflecting on it, I tend to say Republicans here because I assume there comes a point at which one refuses to go along with the nonsense and thus chooses to disaffiliate.

My understanding, if correct, is that there has been, and continues to be, large numbers of people disaffiliating from both sides of our failing two-party system. The nonsense is alive and well on both sides.

There are also similar reasons why I have remained an Independent and have not registered as a Democrat. I don’t think they are nearly as upsetting or dangerous, to me

Understood - For what it's worth, I have no problem with you coming to your own conclusions and casting your vote based on said conclusions. Here is what I do have an issue with: If people come to different conclusions that are not the same as yours, what then? Should they be allowed to cast their vote without being required to answer to those who voted differently? I believe all American citizens have the right to vote without having to justify/answer to/explain said vote to all those who oppose.

I guess I just don’t feel burnt up when someone attacks a group identity.

Whether or not you personally get burnt up has no impact of the negative consequences, damage, and division that is created by attacking all members within a group of individual people. Your personal feelings/reaction is irrelevant.

I feel free not to own that if the statement does not apply.

It doesn't change the reality of what it does, kish. I do not own any of the nonsense that is often thrown out (racist, homophobe, nazi, fascist, etc) - That fact that I don't own any of this nonsense is missing the point completely. The nonsense has tremendous negative effect/impact. It creates damage and division. It stops conversation - It prevents unity - Who wants to discuss things with a racist/homophobe/fascist? Who wants to unite with a racist/homophobe/fascist? The problem rests in the intentional demonization of millions of human beings.

[ceeboo]

Sometimes, people even stop responding because they realize that their arguments don't hold water.

I am confident that my arguments in this thread are solid - deeply rooted in reality - and very strong.

If you don't think they hold water, I am fine with that.

[Morley]

Sometimes, people even stop responding because they realize that their arguments don't hold water.

I am confident that my arguments in this thread are solid - deeply rooted in reality - and very strong.

If you don't think they hold water, I am fine with that.

Ha! Me, too.

[Kishkumen]

My understanding, if correct, is that there has been, and continues to be, large numbers of people disaffiliating from both sides of our failing two-party system. The nonsense is alive and well on both sides.

I want the two-part system to end. So, I am not unhappy to see it doing poorly. That said, one side is a clear danger to democracy right now, so my particular ire is aimed at that party.

Understood - For what it's worth, I have no problem with you coming to your own conclusions and casting your vote based on said conclusions. Here is what I do have an issue with: If people come to different conclusions that are not the same as yours, what then? Should they be allowed to cast their vote without being required to answer to those who voted differently? I believe all American citizens have the right to vote without having to justify/answer to/explain said vote to all those who oppose.

If the results of those votes are the end of the Republic for everyone, that changes things for me. I think it is good for people to engage openly with these problems, and, yes, that means Trump supporters should be criticized for supporting a politician who is a clear threat to the Republic. But I say all of this in the context of free speech, not with the intent of compelling anyone to defend their choices before they can exercise their rights.

Whether or not you personally get burnt up has no impact of the negative consequences, damage, and division that is created by attacking all members within a group of individual people. Your personal feelings/reaction is irrelevant.

Maybe! If it helps any, I generally keep my political opinions to myself except around sympathetic family members, friends, and on this board. I do have a difficult time resonating with anyone who feels passionate about their affiliation with a political party. I said that to help you understand my point of view. If I went out seeking to stoke conflict widely, I would feel called to repentance here. I just don’t.

I need an outlet. This board is my outlet. I regret that my biting criticism of the Republican Party makes some people feel deeply offended. I feel terrified to live through Project 2025 Trump World, so my sense of guilt for saddening the people who are eager to make that happen is increasingly weak.

It doesn't change the reality of what it does, kish. I do not own any of the nonsense that is often thrown out (racist, homophobe, nazi, fascist, etc) - That fact that I don't own any of this nonsense is missing the point completely. The nonsense has tremendous negative effect/impact. It creates damage and division. It stops conversation - It prevents unity - Who wants to discuss things with a racist/homophobe/fascist? Who wants to unite with a racist/homophobe/fascist? The problem rests in the intentional demonization of millions of human beings.

I am eager to unite with anyone who wants to save our democracy from Trump, the Heritage Foundation, and Project 2025. I wish we could agree on that much. Any other priority is, for me, much, much lower. I think Britain’s Labour Party got it right. Be ready to make some compromises to fend off disaster. This is why I am impatient with people who are focused on other issues. The ones who are calling Joe Biden too old because they feel he should have represented some identity or age group that they believe is due representation. I am eager to join with people across the political spectrum who recognize that our Republic is in critical danger from one source in particular: Trumpism.