Calling it "Politically Motivated"

[Markk]

Cakes: Yes, generally, it’s preferable where and when possible.

Can you elaborate on that....has it been good for us with China as an example?

Nope. Put that one on the ‘Markk just made that up’ list, too.

Okay, then you don't, so the we can agree a trillion dollars a year deficit is not good....is that a fair assumption?

By the way, if you think that the top 1% are the only innovators and job creators - or even the largest portion of folks that fit those entirely squishy terms - then I have some swampland at Mar-a-Lago to sell you, and possibly some Trump memecoins. Wanna see what I got? I take payments.

I do not think that, nor did I say that....I said "key" job creators and innovators. They are key not only for the large corporations, but for providing the technologies and tools that allow medium and small businesses to more easily succeed and expand. Those small businesses that need oil, fuel, shipping, tires, etc, which in most cases are owned and or managed by 1%'ers.

Great question. You just answered it a few lines above.

Will you remember that you answered it before asking again? I’m beginning to worry about you. ; )

We maybe you can off the top of you head, in a paragraph or two give me the abstract of that plan.

Sounds like a great topic for another thread. Trump has levied tariffs on 16,479 nations, principalities, countries, territories, city-states, commonwealths, random islands and an assortment of oddly-named alleyways in Jersey City that he thought were inhabited by dirty, evil foreigners, so if you’re going to start taking each one on in a case-by-case question-and-answer session (especially one in which I’ll have to repeat my answers a dozen times before you admit to seeing them), then that’s best left for a new and different thread.

It has roots and context in this thread, it would be best to discuss it here. Here it is again for you....

"why should we as a nation allow China to take advantage of us in trade, and do things like stealing our innovations and technologies, while growing in military might partly because of this, and having the potential to cut us off, if things go south, of products we are dependent on? And example is masks and other things we were in short supply of during covid, which personally opened my eyes. But anyways as I wrote this is important to the conversation, and further more why Trump, a democrat then, spoke hard against NAFTA, WTO; basically free trade."

[Gunnar]

That's outrageous that Trump based his plan on a fictional economist invented by Ron Navarro whose every economic prediction has embarrassingly failed! Not only that, but he is also an ex-con who has served time in jail for contempt of Congress! Navarro is yet another example of a Trump appointee chosen based only on his loyalty to Trump!

Trump was talking about reciprocal tariffs and how we are being ripped off by foreign nations, along with Democrats like Pelosi in the 80's 90's. You don't have to agree but at least review the history. he took out a Times add in 87.

https://youtu.be/7kM0yl8W0gQ

I can't deny that Nancy Pelosi made a lot of very good sense in that speech. I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that China continually tries to take unfair advantage of us and other trading partners and is notorious for stealing intellectual property and patents. I can admit that there are times that tariffs make sense, at least temporarily, at times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8wJc7vHcTs

In the above video, Trump seems a lot less unhinged and unreasonable than he has subsequently shown himself to be. The fact still remains that he has had numerous bankruptcies, committed fraud, abused and maligned minorities and women, shown little concern for anyone other than himself and fabulously wealthy oligarchs to whom he has promised literally trillions in tax cuts that they neither need nor deserve. And the universal tariffs he insists upon still are seen as totally unhinged by the vast majority of qualified economists and financial experts.

Nor do I think there is any reasonable doubt that he has dictatorial ambitions and actively promotes voter suppression schemes, especially of minorities and all voters not likely to vote conservative. His support and envy of Putin and other notorious tyrants could not be more obvious, and his accusing Ukraine of starting the war with Russian is outrageously and maliciously false, and even some of the most conservative Republicans acknowledge that and are disgusted with it.

[Markk]

Trump was talking about reciprocal tariffs and how we are being ripped off by foreign nations, along with Democrats like Pelosi in the 80's 90's. You don't have to agree but at least review the history. he took out a Times add in 87.

https://youtu.be/7kM0yl8W0gQ

I can't deny that Nancy Pelosi made a lot of very good sense in that speech. I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that China continually tries to take unfair advantage of us and other trading partners and is notorious for stealing intellectual property and patents. I can admit that there are times that tariffs make sense, at least temporarily, at times.

It is bigger than that Gunnar. What She, Trump, Bernie, and many other republicans and democrats alike were saying, is that NAFTA, the WTO, and PNTR sold out the American worker and our Industrial might. We are trading paper money to China, and much of the world, for manufactured goods....what would happen if they just said...."no more?" Look around your home, how much percentage wise of "things" are made in the US vs by another country?

The good news is that China and the high volume exporters need the US market, big time. We are a spoiled nation and we buy, buy, buy....without our consumption China would be in deep yogurt. It's not going to be easy, nor are there any guarantees, but this mess is not Trump's fault, he is trying to repair the mess that Clinton and Bush signed us into, free trade and making China the power it is.

Tariffs are okay and good, if balanced. It is when they get lobsided and affect industry, as in our case, gets dangerous. There is another option that Trump I believe is willing to do, and that is accept a "true free trade." Where there are zero tariffs for both counties, which I read Vietnam is suggesting.

[Gunnar]

The good news is that China and the high volume exporters need the US market, big time. We are a spoiled nation and we buy, buy, buy....without our consumption China would be in deep yogurt. It's not going to be easy, nor are there any guarantees, but this mess is not Trump's fault, he is trying to repair the mess that Clinton and Bush signed us into, free trade and making China the power it is.

Tariffs are okay and good, if balanced. It is when they get lobsided and affect industry, as in our case, gets dangerous. There is another option that Trump I believe is willing to do, and that is accept a "true free trade." Where there are zero tariffs for both counties, which I read Vietnam is suggesting.

I don't agree for even a second that Clinton and Bush are the main culprits, though I suspect that Bush may more culpable than Clinton, who left the country with budget surplus at the end of his Presidency. I will agree that the mess is not all Trump's fault either. He is just the useful idiot being used by the real culprits, namely the ultra-conservative and ultra-wealthy corporate leaders who have for decades been trying their darndest to fill the courts with conservative judges beholden to them alone, undermine democracy and the rule of law, dumb down the American populace and rekindle their latent bigotry, and establish a "White and/or Christian Nationalist" oligarchy or theocracy. I admit the probability that even some, who call themselves Democrats, have also been enticed by their own greed and lust for power to work for the benefit of wealthy corporate donors, and thereby helped to set the stage for Trump and his avaricious, nefarious intentions.

ETA: Nor do I believe that Trump is willing to agree to zero tariffs for both countries. He has said that he wishes to abolish the IRS and income taxes altogether and rely entirely on tariffs for government revenue.

[Physics Guy]

The good news is that China and the high volume exporters need the US market, big time. ...without our consumption China would be in deep yogurt.

Why does anyone in China need American pieces of paper? What would happen if they stopped getting enough of them?

[Markk]

I don't agree for even a second that Clinton and Bush are the main culprits,

NAFTA....

All I can do is suggest a little homework. My guess is you were not around when all this took place.

https://youtu.be/GJY_gD7YYjM?t=260

Bush after Clinton left, signed What Clinton was a champion of into law.

WTO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wo2wD4BQGs

Trade representative Michael Kantor signed us into the WTO under Clinton. Clinton authorized it. Also reading through this, the WTO is financed by contributions from it members, and the US as always gave the largest donations to an organization, even more than China. We did not withdraw from the WTO, but Trump suspended our contributions from what I read.

China into the WTO and favored nation status.

Jimmy Carter and maybe even Regan, and Bush the elder for sure, were behind this....in 1999 Bush the younger convinced Congress to pass a law, which he signed, to grant China favored nation status (PNTR). It was a republican led congress and senate....The Senate passed the law 83-15, the law passed congress at 237-197. 3/4 rep...1/4 Democrat. It is kind of cool in one way, and only one way... that Clinton wanted it bad, and his party did not, but the GOP did, and sided with a blue president. We won't see that kind of debate anytime soon in that we are so polarized and married to identity politics.

https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/d ... 08-1082956#_=_

https://www.baronpa.com/library/the-vot ... -the-world

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1999/11/15 ... 942642000/

Note that when we let China in the WTO, there was a 60 billion dollar trade deficit, in 2024 it was almost 300 billion.

He is just the useful idiot being used by the real culprits, namely the ultra-conservative and ultra-wealthy corporate leaders who have for decades been trying their darndest to fill the courts with conservative judges beholden to them alone,

You do understand that all these ultra wealthy corporate leaders that deal with China and other trade partners that are taking advantage us are going to take the biggest hit. Again do your homework.

ETA: Nor do I believe that Trump is willing to agree to zero tariffs for both countries. He has said that he wishes to abolish the IRS and income taxes altogether and rely entirely on tariffs for government revenue.

Maybe, maybe not....we will see.

[Markk]

The good news is that China and the high volume exporters need the US market, big time. ...without our consumption China would be in deep yogurt.

Why does anyone in China need American pieces of paper? What would happen if they stopped getting enough of them?

Well, because the Dollar is the worlds currency. The point, in what I wrote, is that we consume with our dollars what we no longer manufacture....and China receives our wealth in dollars, while we lose industrial might.

I'll put it another way, we export over 400 billion dollars to China in purchased good, what would you do with almost half a trillion dollars? If they stopped getting our dollars, that would mean we are not buying their products, and return their growth would stall and decline.

That is why in my opinion we do hold some cards here, they need us.

I will add, China obviously knows this and this is why they are trying and are being successful in opening up other foreign markets, to make them less dependent on our "paper" and to make the yen The world currency.

They are our enemy whether we admit it or not, and we are in a cold war or sorts with them. They are, with our "paper" building their military and industrial strength, to unprecedented levels. While we buy their cheap crap and our stolen technologies. And, while they sell opiod predecessors to Mexico to weaken us.

Did you know, and this is off the top of my head ( I heard it on a podcast), and would be a great thread. Only about 20% +- so of our military aged males are fit for service. 80% +- could not make it because of obesity, mental health, drugs, criminal records and other factors....80%, that is just crazy to think about. I have no idea what China's is, but I bet it is very different, and even if low my guess is there standards are crazy high. We have lowered our standards. Again it would be a good topic to dig into an learn.

[Kishkumen]

Lol, well at least you're reading them.

Not many. You and HoH write a lot and say very little that is worth the effort of reading.

[Kishkumen]

The good news is that China and the high volume exporters need the US market, big time. ...without our consumption China would be in deep yogurt.

Why does anyone in China need American pieces of paper? What would happen if they stopped getting enough of them?

The world can go along merrily without the US. Trump has just ended American leadership in the world. Hopefully Europe will step up and lead what remains of the free world.

[Physics Guy]

If they stopped getting our dollars, that would mean we are not buying their products, and return their growth would stall and decline.

Why?

What can Chinese people do with American paper, that they cannot do without it?