Trump and Harvard

[Markk]

Well, I was addressing, which you were defending, Chap writing " But videos are about the most inefficient method of passing on information known to man. "

And, if people only have 5 minutes, let alone 20 seconds, to review and understand such a serious topic, I would suggest they probably aren't interested in really understanding the issues.

Likewise, if you are unwilling to spend 20 seconds to make your point then perhaps you don't consider the topic all that important. Sauce, goose, gander. <Shrug>

Bret, why are you getting upset? Chap stuck his foot in his mouth, not me.

[canpakes]

You asked about the reaction being racist, not antisemitic. There’s a difference. Why are you changing lanes again?

Lol, If you are that shallow to not understand that hating Jews, because they are Jews, is racist antisemitism, then fine. I will add this to the list.

Would that be the list of times that you might not be remembering whatever you thought that you were talking about? : ) Because what I said referred to the Star of David and someone’s reaction to it, and your contention that any negative reaction to it must be ‘racist’. You're wrong. It doesn’t always have to be a racist reaction. It can be for any of the reasons I pointed out.

An example would be how some Americans react to how other Americans use the flag to show alignment with MAGA. If one person finds the co-opting of the flag and the American ideals symbolized by it that they cherish subdued through MAGA ‘ownership’ of the flag, then their reaction isn’t related to ‘racism’.

This, and the Nazi example, really are simple concepts to grasp. You seem to realize that what I’m saying is correct, because you had to ditch mention of the Star of David in your response above and substitute ‘Jews’, as if the two are interchangeable. They’re not.

I’m comparing how some rationalizations or kinds of equivocation don’t quite work. I don’t see a problem with pointing that out. Can you explain what is bothering you about that?

I am not bothered at all, I am pointing out that Nazism was a political party, while antisemitism, towards Jews, is a form of hate and racism. For kicks, I asked A.I. the question. "what is racism towards Jews called" and it wrote...." Racism towards Jewish people is called antisemitism. The word "antisemitism" was coined in the late 19th century as a more "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass, or "Jew-hatred".

So if you need to find a way out of our conversation by trying to split hairs, again fine.

None of your response disproves (or relates, even) to my comment about the potential problems with rationalization and/or equivocation. At this point, you just seem to be arguing out of frustration of not being able to rationalize your way out of your double standard.

Is it either bigoted or racist to tell residents of an area that they have to leave because God gave to (you) the land that they’re living on?

[Bret Ripley]

Likewise, if you are unwilling to spend 20 seconds to make your point then perhaps you don't consider the topic all that important. Sauce, goose, gander. <Shrug>

Bret, why are you getting upset? Chap stuck his foot in his mouth, not me.

Upset? Not even a little bit, my dude. A tiny bit amused, maybe.

And no: Chap did not stick his foot in his mouth. You inadvertently offered evidence of the truth of that he wrote with your 'great example' video that took 5 minutes to convey maybe 20 seconds-worth of information. That was kind of funny, I suppose. I wouldn't refer to it as you putting your foot in your mouth, though -- putting your foot in your mouth would require some effort on your part.

[Markk]

Would that be the list of times that you might not be remembering whatever you thought that you were talking about? : ) Because what I said referred to the Star of David and someone’s reaction to it, and your contention that any negative reaction to it must be ‘racist’. You're wrong. It doesn’t always have to be a racist reaction. It can be for any of the reasons I pointed out.

An example would be how some Americans react to how other Americans use the flag to show alignment with MAGA. If one person finds the co-opting of the flag and the American ideals symbolized by it that they cherish subdued through MAGA ‘ownership’ of the flag, then their reaction isn’t related to ‘racism’.

This, and the Nazi example, really are simple concepts to grasp. You seem to realize that what I’m saying is correct, because you had to ditch mention of the Star of David in your response above and substitute ‘Jews’, as if the two are interchangeable. They’re not.

Again, if you believe that the antisemitism that was and is being displayed on campuses and in the video, that I doubt you even watched, is not a form of racism, then fine. It complements your denial of what is going on in the campuses and many parts of the world.

It has nothing to do with how folks react to the flag or Maga, it has to do with hate of Jews and the nation of Israel. Whether proper or not, that is what the term antisemitism has evolved into' a prejudice and hatred for jews, which seems you support in your inability to recognize it or call out those that exhibit this brand of hatred.

Antisemitism is not a political party. There were people that belonged to the Nazi Party, such as Oscar Schindler that were not antisemitic nor did they hate Jews. You said "This wasn’t really a racism issue." when at its roots, and obviously by the actions of the folks in the video it was a clear case of racism and had nothing to do with the Star of David.

In regard to the Star of David, it is disgusting you are defending what Gunnar wrote as some sort of "vibe" wearing it, like it was a low cut blouse and women gossiping, and somehow provoking the antisemites in their racism and hate, and again, saying it was not a racism issue. The history of the swastika and the Star of David arm bands might have slipped your mind.

[canpakes]

Cakes:Would that be the list of times that you might not be remembering whatever you thought that you were talking about? : ) Because what I said referred to the Star of David and someone’s reaction to it, and your contention that any negative reaction to it must be ‘racist’. You're wrong. It doesn’t always have to be a racist reaction. It can be for any of the reasons I pointed out.

An example would be how some Americans react to how other Americans use the flag to show alignment with MAGA. If one person finds the co-opting of the flag and the American ideals symbolized by it that they cherish subdued through MAGA ‘ownership’ of the flag, then their reaction isn’t related to ‘racism’.

This, and the Nazi example, really are simple concepts to grasp. You seem to realize that what I’m saying is correct, because you had to ditch mention of the Star of David in your response above and substitute ‘Jews’, as if the two are interchangeable. They’re not.

Again, if you believe that the antisemitism that was and is being displayed on campuses and in the video, that I doubt you even watched, is not a form of racism, then fine. It complements your denial of what is going on in the campuses and many parts of the world.

I think that you’re trying to construct some sort of straw man here, given that I haven’t said this, but you keep trying to tell me that I have.

It has nothing to do with how folks react to the flag or Maga,

Again, you’re conflating general examples with situation-specific motives.

it has to do with hate of Jews and the nation of Israel.

Antisemitism absolutely can be this. No doubt about it.

What it is not is merely voicing an opinion against what Israel may be doing in Gaza at the moment.

Whether proper or not, that is what the term antisemitism has evolved into' a prejudice and hatred for jews, which seems you support in your inability to recognize it or call out those that exhibit this brand of hatred.

Here’s your straw man, again.

What I and others have said is that being at odds with Israel’s policy and actions towards Palestinians during the current crisis is not necessarily a form of antisemitism. Sometimes disagreement is quite valid and necessary for any number of reasons.

This is the reality that you cannot allow yourself to publicly acknowledge, because you’ve decided to push Trump’s BS that any criticism of Israel’s present actions with regard to the Gaza conflict equates to ‘antisemitism’. And both you and Trump are very, very wrong about this.

You’ll absolutely find antisemitic actions and anttitudes expressed by some people over this issue. But you started out with ridiculous and contorted accusations against entire institutions and universities based on the fact that opinions can rightly differ, and some students may endanger other students, as has been the norm with college and university protests since the 1960’s. You’ve launched into those ridiculous accusations because you’ve been suckered into supporting Trump’s butthurt and undemocratic push to punish people and institutions - from universities, to law firms, and even non-profits - that do not toe the line on Trump’s ideological and politically self-serving BS. Just as can be seen in the letter that the Trump Administration sent to Harvard.

Antisemitism is not a political party.

It’s not, but there’s one political party today that’s politically deploying the term and cheapening its meaning by misusing it to form their own ‘enemies list’ against people and institutions that won’t bend the knee to them. That’s the irony of the part you’re playing in that process.

There were people that belonged to the Nazi Party, such as Oscar Schindler that were not antisemitic nor did they hate Jews. You said "This wasn’t really a racism issue." when at its roots, and obviously by the actions of the folks in the video it was a clear case of racism and had nothing to do with the Star of David.

Here you’ve glommed different things and history together to claim distress over connections that weren’t made by me.

In regard to the Star of David, it is disgusting you are defending what Gunnar wrote

And here you’re pretending that I didn’t call that comment out. Because I did. If you’re pretending here that I did not, then the only conclusion is that you are either having serious comprehension issues with the language, or are outright lying to try to make some sort of desperate point.

… as some sort of "vibe" wearing it, like it was a low cut blouse and women gossiping, and somehow provoking the antisemites in their racism and hate, and again, saying it was not a racism issue.

So it does appear that you understand the reference somewhat, in the midst of trying to twist what was said.

No need to twist. Why be that guy? It’s a bad look.

The history of the swastika and the Star of David arm bands might have slipped your mind.

Perhaps your amnesia is age-related. I can forgive you for that. : D But, you’ve apparently forgotten about when Res Ipsa and I took on one of this board’s more notable Holocaust deniers some years ago.

I definitely don’t need a reminder on what antisemitism is, but you may have aspirations of cheapening it for your own political reasons, and to distract from not being able to examine the role of bigotry on all sides. As I asked previously, is it either bigoted or racist to tell residents of an area that they have to leave because God gave to (you) the land that they’re living on?

[Gunnar]

Ok, I found your arguments on this persuasive. That student's wearing of a Star of David should not have been regarded as any more offensive than a Muslim woman wearing a hijab whenever she is out in public. And I realized from the start that the real offence was the attempt of the Palestinian protesters to prohibit the Jewish student from entering the campus merely because he was wearing that Star of David.

Actually neither are offensive. There is not if or buts....

I agree that neither wearing a Star of David nor a hijab should be considered offensive.

The protesters were displaying in the video their antisemitic view, clearly. You need to just admit that and move on.

That they specifically singled out a Jew wearing a Star of David to direct their protests at and deny entrance to the university was certainly antisemitic. But they were not wrong to protest the very real, unjust and indiscriminate violence committed by the IDF against Gazan civilians, especially women, children, health workers, humanitarian aid providers and the elderly, who had nothing to do with the October 7 massacre and kidnappings.

[Gunnar]

As I asked previously, is it either bigoted or racist to tell residents of an area that they have to leave because God gave to (you) the land that they’re living on?

I don't know about Markk, but I definitely think that is bigoted and racist; I don't care what anyone thinks the Bible has to say about it.

[Markk]

Gunnar: That they specifically singled out a Jew wearing a Star of David to direct their protests at and deny entrance to the university was certainly antisemitic.

It was not just one Jew, it was any Jew on Campus that went their direction. It was a protest, directed at and to Jews. Did you do any research on this or read through the protest signs?

But they were not wrong to protest the very real, unjust and indiscriminate violence committed by the IDF against Gazan civilians, especially women, children, health workers, humanitarian aid providers and the elderly, who had nothing to do with the October 7 massacre and kidnappings.

Gunner, were they protesting the violence against the massacre? Where they protesting against Hamas? Where they protesting against Hamas for using innocent Palestinian men, women, and children as human shields? Storing weapons in public places, even schools. Booby trapping buildings, etc..., or are they just demonstrating Israel and Jews?

If you want to get into detail on this let me know.

# war sucks.

[Gunnar]

Gunner, were they protesting the violence against the massacre? Where they protesting against Hamas? Where they protesting against Hamas for using innocent Palestinian men, women, and children as human shields? Storing weapons in public places, even schools. Booby trapping buildings, etc..., or are they just demonstrating Israel and Jews?

If you want to get into detail on this let me know.

# war sucks.

Why do you keep misspelling my name?

If they are not also opposed to those things, they should be. I acknowledge that. But it still remains true that their opposition to IDF atrocities and war crimes in Gaza is justified. Remember that many of both Jews and non-Jews are justly opposed to IDF and Israeli government directed atrocities in Gaza--not just Palestinians. This is not antisemitism.

[canpakes]

If they are not also opposed to those things, they should be. I acknowledge that. But it still remains true that their opposition to IDF atrocities and war crimes in Gaza is justified.

Exactly. It’s hard to take someone seriously who will wail about the unjustified deaths of Israeli citizens on October 7, but who will then ignore (or worse yet, cheer) the deaths of 10 times as many Palestinian women and children in response.