No Trump defenders left ...?

[_Markk]

Markk,

When you read the entire affidavit and my subsequent seven posts we can continue the conversation, otherwise your predictable blithe dismissal and whataboutism is noted.

- Doc

I have read the affidavit, where does it tie the two together...cut and paste that part?

[_Chap]

... where does it tie the two together ...

Which two? This is not a simple matter of linking A and B, but instead is a huge and complex affair, each part of which links into the others and reinforces them.

So far as I can see, it is becoming clear that the Russian mafia/government has been succeeding admirably in getting its tentacles deep into the conservative/Republican movement, and, as part of that, deep into the Trump team and even the Trump family. And Trump's foreign policy utterances and actions are nicely in tune with what the Russians want.

Either Trump knows that is happening and approves, in which case he is complicit, or he does not, in which case he is frankly as dumb as a rock.

[_EAllusion]

The starting line is the very affidavit that you stated was a smoking gun. There is nothing in the affidavit that ties her to Trump. E.A. even agrees with me that there is nothing there that ties Trump to Putina, especially for espionage .

We can move on to your next plate, and maybe there is something more substantial, but you have to be honest with yourself first.

No I don't. She is tied to Trump through intermediaries, which is in that affidavit. There's just not enough in public to tie this story to the espionage story or know if a quid pro quo deal occurred with the laundering scheme. That Butina moved in high enough level Republican circles to connect to Trump isn't enough to weigh in on either of those. Butina has been cooperating, at least to a limited extent, with Mueller's investigation since Sept. in a plea deal and we don't know what else is out there. Her "boyfriend" Paul Erickson is in all sorts of hot water and we don't know what he's going to give up to avoid the guillotine either.

The "collusion" where Russia agrees to use illegal tactics to help Trump and his allies in the American election process and Trump agrees to help Russia's foreign policy aims (merely being President of the US is enough in Trump's case, but he does more as a bonus) happens right out in the open. You've seen it on TV. It's part of what makes the "where's the smoking gun, guys?!?" stuff silly. Do you need to see exaggerated winks every Trump time lies or pursues an otherwise irrational position on behalf of Russia? The walls are closing in on the Trump campaign's deliberate cooperation with Russia, but if that's all you are focused on, that's missing the forest for the trees.

In addition to this, Team Trump has already defended themselves by saying collusion with Russia to get Clinton's emails would've been smart. "We didn't do it, but if we did, it was good." They had to strike this pose, because they've been caught nearly red-handed at least trying along those lines. Maybe believe them? Their current defense presumes they were unsuccessful even though the espionage to elect Trump actually happened and we have increasingly clear evidence of high level Trump people knowing about it before the public did. All of this, even sans a literal handshake deal, is incredibly bad. Traitorous, even. Again, don't miss the forest for the trees.

[_EAllusion]

We know that Trump's team absolutely knew about Russian espionage efforts against Clinton. Their denials cover trading that for policy concessions such as the sanctions relief they've doggedly pursued, not foreknowledge. We also know that the Trump team also took a public stance of casting doubt that Russia was involved in those Russian espionage efforts to hack and release Clinton's emails despite that foreknowledge.

Here's Donald Trump Jr., the same Donald Trump Jr. who arranged and attended the Trump Tower meeting and tried to lie about it until evidence of his lying was exposed, going on TV and straight up doing that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiEGEGcokUc

If you need examples of Donald Trump doing the same, you were living under a rock for the past 2 years.

[_EAllusion]

Trump endorsed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan today. I swear, he's scientifically designed to show how much so many conservatives will put partisanship over their supposed political principles.

I missed your mention of this on my first read-through but it deserves a bump. This is one of those things that slipped by on a full news cycle but really shouldn't have. In some alternate reality, where the president is sane, it would have been a huge friggin' deal that President not only endorsed this action but used the Russian talking points about it to do so.

He said this at the exact same time Russia has a bill up in their country to enforce a revisionist take on the Soviet Afghanistan invasion that mirrors exactly what Trump said. For being a complete moron, he has a strange fluency in Russian propaganda that he's always echoing.

This is a minor issue in the big scheme of things, but also something so unfathomable to think occurred from the perspective of, say, 1988 that it kinda slaps you in the face.

[_EAllusion]

For being a complete moron, he has a strange fluency in Russian propaganda that he's always echoing.

Whaddyaknow.

I was looking this up for a few examples to illustrate the point and found that Maddow did a bit on it just yesterday:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc ... _tw_maddow

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc ... _tw_maddow

I guess it's not too coincidental given that the inspiration for the observation is probably the same story, but go figure.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Butina pled guilty in December to conspiring to act as an agent of the Russian state in the runup to the 2016 election. She worked with Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of the Russian national bank, to infiltrate the NRA and create relationships with conservative politicians and candidates in an effort to influence US policy toward Russia.



She was crucial, along with Torshin, at funneling tens of millions toward DT's election bid, and tens of millions more toward GOP campaigns.

This is just one piece of the GOP-Russian kompromat. You either get it or you don't. *shrugs*

- Doc

[_Maksutov]

I keep running into this attitude.

They won't read or think. They have memes instead. There is a certain power in ignorance.

[_Chap]

For being a complete moron, he has a strange fluency in Russian propaganda that he's always echoing.

Whaddyaknow.

I was looking this up for a few examples to illustrate the point and found that Maddow did a bit on it just yesterday:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc ... _tw_maddow

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc ... _tw_maddow

I guess it's not too coincidental given that the inspiration for the observation is probably the same story, but go figure.

God almighty. I just watched that. The TL/DR is:

1. Shortly after taking over, the Trump administration started asking for information on a supposed risk of Polish incursions into Belarus - a risk that existed ONLY in Russian propaganda sources, and which even the most bizarre commentators in the US had not put forward.

2. More recently, Trump did an unmotivated spiel in a Fox interview on how the people of Montenegro (a tiny Balkan country) were 'very aggressive' and might start World War 3. Again, the idea of this was purely an artefact of Russian state propaganda, which was the only source from which Trump could have heard of this weird idea. By the way, the Russians had just sponsored a failed coup in Montenegro, in an attempt to prevent Montenegro joining NATO, which they did shortly after. And we've all seen the tape of Trump shoving the Montenegran prime minister aside at the subsequent NATO summit).

3. Yesterday, at a supposed 'cabinet meeting' at which 90 minutes of filmed business consisted mostly of a rambling speech from Trump, he suddenly lurched into a statement that the Russian coup and invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 was justified 'because terrorists were going into Russia.' Again, the only source for this notion is Putin's political party in Russia, which is planning to introduce a law proclaiming exactly that.

Someone's clearly feeding him this stuff. And whoever is doing so has a strong enough hold over him to ensure that he does not forget to repeat it whenever he gets a chance. He doesn't read briefing papers, he gets the names of allied leaders and foreign countries wrong, but this stuff gets delivered as from a script. (Hands up anyone who believes Trump had ever heard of Montenegro before? No? Thought not!)

Not good.

[_canpakes]

The walls are closing in on the Trump campaign's deliberate cooperation with Russia...

Ironically, these are the only walls that he’ll probably manage to have built, regardless of any claim about another wall while on the 2016 campaign trail.