EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

Gunnar wrote:Yet you don't respect the facts presented by the EXXON climate researchers and the overwhelming majority of all other climate scientists trying to warn us of the potential dangers of global warming. Even if the overwhelming consensus of climate scientists is somehow wrong, refusing to do anything at all to prevent or ameliorate the potentially bad consequences of global warming until everyone is absolutely sure about it is as foolish as refusing to buy fire insurance until you know that your house is already burning!

I sincerely wish that AGW really were not the problem that most scientists agree that it is, but even if it is not, most, if not all of the measures proposed to minimize it and its consequences are potentially of great benefit in the long run to innovative entrepreneurs, the overall economy and to job creation. Weaning us off our excessive dependence on fossil fuels, improving energy efficiency and minimizing waste of natural resources are all desirable goals, regardless of what is true or not true about AGW.


No, I don't respect your logically fallacious arguments and nutty claims.

For example, do you know how much CO2 a single mega-eruption like Kraktoa produced? It was about 100-120 Gigatons. So are you proposing that we design giant plugs to stop mega-eruptions? The idea that human beings (at our current level of progress) can meaningfully influence how the climate develops is patently absurd.

And there is no reason to stop using inexpensive energy sources like coal, oil, and gas. That is just stupid. All you are doing is driving up the price of energy which only hurts the poor.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

Gunnar wrote:If you had read the links I provided you would already know the answer to those questions.
Obviously the answers aren't there, otherwise you'd be able to answer the questions.
Gunnar wrote:No! The real religious zealots are the ones who deliberately ignore and obfuscate the evidence of AGW because they don't like what that evidence points to.
As I keep explaining to you, the clear indication that you are nothing but religious nut is that you don't deal in facts. Just specious claims and logically fallacious arguments.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Gunnar »

Tobin wrote:No, I don't respect your logically fallacious arguments and nutty claims.

They are not my claims. I should trust your word over that of scientists who are actually engaged in climate research?

For example, do you know how much CO2 a single mega-eruption like Kraktoa produced? It was about 100-120 Gigatons. So are you proposing that we design giant plugs to stop mega-eruptions?

Irrelevant. We can't predict when the next Krakatoa like eruption will occur, and we certainly can't prevent one, but we can certainly reduce the amount CO2 that we currently emit into the atmosphere. which is currently 135 times the combined total of all the CO2 emitted by all the earth's volcanoes..
The idea that human beings (at our current level of progress) can meaningfully influence how the climate develops is patently absurd.

That is not even close to the truth. https://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm

And there is no reason to stop using inexpensive energy sources like coal, oil, and gas. That is just stupid. All you are doing is driving up the price of energy which only hurts the poor.

Again, not even close to the truth. See Reinventing Fire. Here is a good review of that book and quote from that review
The book is well-written and easy to read, but as I said, it's not exactly light reading. It should be required reading for policymakers and businesspeople, though. There are still lots of low-hanging fruits that could be quite lucrative if grabbed, and Reinventing Fire tells you where to look for them. Some of the examples are such no-brainers that it's truly shocking to think that not everybody is doing things that way; for example, they talk about how most skyscrapers could be retrofitted at no extra cost to a regular retrofit to use less than half the energy that they're using now, saving hundreds of thousands of dollars per year (if not millions) in energy costs, while at the same time providing a more productive and comfortable environment for the people inside.

The best thing about this book is that it's all about solutions! We hear so much about the problems that this is a breath of fresh air, and it makes me more optimistic about the future than I've been in a while (and I'm an optimist).

I have a copy of that book and am currently reading it. It is informative and fascinating reading. Also see this and this.
I give far more credence to Amory Lovins than I will ever give to you!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Gunnar »

Tobin wrote:
Gunnar wrote:If you had read the links I provided you would already know the answer to those questions.
Obviously the answers aren't there, otherwise you'd be able to answer the questions.

As I thought, you haven't even looked at them.
Gunnar wrote:No! The real religious zealots are the ones who deliberately ignore and obfuscate the evidence of AGW because they don't like what that evidence points to.
Tobin wrote:
As I keep explaining to you, the clear indication that you are nothing but religious nut is that you don't deal in facts. Just specious claims and logically fallacious arguments.

False! I have provided plenty of facts, and you are the only one of us providing specious arguments.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

Gunnar wrote:They are not my claims. I should trust your word over that of scientists who are actually engaged in climate research?
Did your doppelganger write the OP? And which of my supposed claims are you incredulous about? I've only made one.

Gunnar wrote:Irrelevant. We can't predict when the next Krakatoa like eruption will occur, and we certainly can't prevent one, but we can certainly reduce the amount CO2 that we currently emit into the atmosphere. which is currently 135 times the combined total of all the CO2 emitted by all the earth's volcanoes..
I think it is funny that someone that is so concerned about human emmisions of CO2 would overlook something like this. That is 5 times what humans produce each year.

Really? What is your plan to stop mega-eruptions again?

Gunnar wrote:Again, not even close to the truth. See blah blah.
I fail to see anything here to dispute what I've pointed out. With oil at record lows, you only look ridiculous pushing your lunatic religious agenda. The fact of the matter is that coal, oil and gas compared to solar and other sources of energy are inexpensive. You only need to spend money on greater energy efficiency when the price goes up so you get more for each energy dollar spent. Obviously religious nuts like you never took an Economics 101 class either.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

Gunnar wrote:As I thought, you haven't even looked at them.
And yet you still can't answer the questions.
Gunnar wrote:False! I have provided plenty of facts, and you are the only one of us providing specious arguments.
You haven't provided any facts. Just ridiculous bozo claims and fallaciously illogical arguments.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Some Schmo »

Gunnar, I just want to remind you that you're arguing with a dude who believes in a space god.

Thought I put some context around Toby's nonsense.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Gunnar »

Tobin wrote:
Gunnar wrote:They are not my claims. I should trust your word over that of scientists who are actually engaged in climate research?
Did your doppelganger write the OP? And which if my supposed claims are you incredulous about? I've only made one.

Stop being obtuse! You know that what I meant is that the claims I made didn't originate with me. They are the claims of scientists far more knowledgeable than either you or I.

Tobin wrote:
Gunnar wrote:Irrelevant. We can't predict when the next Krakatoa like eruption will occur, and we certainly can't prevent one, but we can certainly reduce the amount CO2 that we currently emit into the atmosphere. which is currently 135 times the combined total of all the CO2 emitted by all the earth's volcanoes..
I think it is funny that someone that is so concerned about human emmisions of CO2 would overlook something like this. That is 5 times what humans produce each year.

Again, you are being deliberately obtuse. The fact that we can't predict or prevent some incredibly huge catastrophe that might or might not possibly occur sometime in the indefinite future does not justify refusing to work on solving problems here and now that we know we can do something about.

Tobin wrote:
Really? What is your plan to stop mega-eruptions again?

Yet more obtuseness and irrelevancy.

Tobin wrote:
Gunnar wrote:Again, not even close to the truth. See blah blah.
I fail to see anything here to dispute what I've pointed out. With oil at record lows, you only look ridiculous pushing you lunatic religious agenda. The fact of the matter is that coal, oil and gas compared to solar and other sources of energy are inexpensive. You only need to spend money on greater energy efficiency when the price goes up so you get more for each energy dollar spent. Obviously religious nuts like you never took an Economics 101 class either.
Nonsense! Improving efficiency and reducing waste is always a good idea, no matter what. And you didn't even try to look at and consider the links to Amory Lovins' ideas. What he said completely blew your arguments to smithereens, which is why you are afraid to look at them.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:Gunnar, I just want to remind you that you're arguing with a dude who believes in a space god.

Thought I put some context around Toby's nonsense.

Thanks for the reminder. Sometimes he even makes ldsfaqs look smart by comparison. But, as I said further up thread, he is merely being his usual trollish self. I find it very hard to believe that even he takes himself seriously. I don't think he has the slightest interest in making a serious contribution to the discussion at hand, or any other discussion.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Some Schmo »

Gunnar wrote:Thanks for the reminder. Sometimes he even makes ldsfaqs look smart by comparison. But, as I said further up thread, he is merely being his usual trollish self. I find it very hard to believe that even he takes himself seriously. I don't think he has the slightest interest in making a serious contribution to the discussion at hand, or any other discussion.

Agreed. When he first showed up here, his big thing (aside from the alien abduction of his sex life) was telling everyone how he was going to put them on ignore. What he ended up doing was ensuring most people ignored him.

Few people take him seriously, and those who do just haven't learned not to yet.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Post Reply