On the death of idealism

[Chap]

I'm not sure how reliable any lessons from history are likely to be for the United States in the coming decades. Social collapse of a superpower in the internet age has no precedent.

My "America 1776 vs France 1789" comparison was not meant to suggest any close historical parallels between those times and places and the current US political situation, but was purely intended to illustrate the point that the insurrectionary violence only fantasised (by most) and planned (by some) in Trumpist circles, is much less likely to lead to any enduring experience of "Yay! Free at last! Let the good times roll!" than it is likely to lead to "Christ Almighty, everything is going to hell in a handcart! Does this thing have a reverse gear on it?"

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm not sure how reliable any lessons from history are likely to be for the United States in the coming decades. Social collapse of a superpower in the internet age has no precedent.

My "America 1776 vs France 1789" comparison was not meant to suggest any close historical parallels between those times and places and the current US political situation, but was purely intended to illustrate the point that the insurrectionary violence only fantasised (by most) and planned (by some) in Trumpist circles, is much less likely to lead to any enduring experience of "Yay! Free at last! Let the good times roll!" than it is likely to lead to "Christ Almighty, everything is going to hell in a handcart! Does this thing have a reverse gear on it?"

I think it was a spot-on analogy. The much desired civil war would be catastrophic and result in a severe restriction of the freedoms these partisans think they’re losing.

- Doc

[honorentheos]

I'm not sure how reliable any lessons from history are likely to be for the United States in the coming decades. Social collapse of a superpower in the internet age has no precedent.

My view is that we can certainly draw lessons from history, but we can't model our approach into the future of declining empire off of any other nation or their path. It's attractive in some circles to argue the US should become more like this country or that, often citing one of the Scandinavian nations of 5 and a half million people, of whom most of the population has share hereditary ties to the nation and remain tied to the state religion while claiming to be secular. New York City alone has over 8 million people living there with as diverse lineages and beliefs as one could imagine. Claiming a shared national identity matters in sociological terms. In the US, we built a national identity from bits and pieces, and shaped them around ideas. As those ideas collapse, the tensions and tearing are becoming more pronounced.

[honorentheos]

My "America 1776 vs France 1789" comparison was not meant to suggest any close historical parallels between those times and places and the current US political situation, but was purely intended to illustrate the point that the insurrectionary violence only fantasised (by most) and planned (by some) in Trumpist circles, is much less likely to lead to any enduring experience of "Yay! Free at last! Let the good times roll!" than it is likely to lead to "Christ Almighty, everything is going to hell in a handcart! Does this thing have a reverse gear on it?"

I think it was a spot-on analogy. The much desired civil war would be catastrophic and result in a severe restriction of the freedoms these partisans think they’re losing.

- Doc

Agreed. I'd extend it to anyone on any side of the political extremism we are challenged by as well.

[Jersey Girl]

I'm still reading here and trying to understand what honor and PG have posted. My strongest frame of reference is psychology. So...here is what the Keirsey website has to say about Idealists. I'm trying to figure out if there are connections so I can better understand the discussion. I figure that since I am, psychologically speaking, an Idealist, I can make the leap to philosophy that uses similar terms. There must be a cross over between the two. In fact, I think I see connections in honor and PG's posts already. Bear with me if I ask questions, I'm trying to learn. If I can find a way to relate, I can learn.

I'll try not to mess up the discussion.

I dislike the sorting into types but it does provide a foundation.

Idealists, as a temperament, are passionately concerned with personal growth and development. Idealists strive to discover who they are and how they can become their best possible self -- always this quest for self-knowledge and self-improvement drives their imagination. And they want to help others make the journey. Idealists are naturally drawn to working with people, and whether in education or counseling, in social services or personnel work, in journalism or the ministry, they are gifted at helping others find their way in life, often inspiring them to grow as individuals and to fulfill their potentials.

Idealists are sure that friendly cooperation is the best way for people to achieve their goals. Conflict and confrontation upset them because they seem to put up angry barriers between people. Idealists dream of creating harmonious, even caring personal relations, and they have a unique talent for helping people get along with each other and work together for the good of all. Such interpersonal harmony might be a romantic ideal, but then Idealists are incurable romantics who prefer to focus on what might be, rather than what is. The real, practical world is only a starting place for Idealists; they believe that life is filled with possibilities waiting to be realized, rich with meanings calling out to be understood. This idea of a mystical or spiritual dimension to life, the "not visible" or the "not yet" that can only be known through intuition or by a leap of faith, is far more important to Idealists than the world of material things.


Highly ethical in their actions, Idealists hold themselves to a strict standard of personal integrity.

They must be true to themselves and to others, and they can be quite hard on themselves when they are dishonest, or when they are false or insincere. More often, however, Idealists are the very soul of kindness. Particularly in their personal relationships, Idealists are without question filled with love and good will. They believe in giving of themselves to help others; they cherish a few warm, sensitive friendships; they strive for a special rapport with their children; and in marriage they wish to find a "soulmate," someone with whom they can bond emotionally and spiritually, sharing their deepest feelings and their complex inner worlds.

Idealists are relatively rare, making up no more than 15 to 20 percent of the population. But their ability to inspire people with their enthusiasm and their idealism has given them influence far beyond their numbers.

There are four types of Idealists

Although all Idealists share core characteristics, not all of them are the same. In Keirsey's observations, he noted that there were four kinds of Idealists. They are: the Idealist Champions (ENFP), Idealist Healers (INFP), Idealist Teachers (ENFJ), and Idealist Counselors (INFJ).


Teachers have a natural talent for leading students or trainees toward learning, or as Idealists like to think of it, they are capable of calling forth each learner's potentials. But perhaps their greatest strength lies in their belief in their students. Teachers look for the best in their students, and communicate clearly that each one has untold potential, and this confidence can inspire their students to grow and develop more than they ever thought possible.


Counselors have an exceptionally strong desire to contribute to the welfare of others, and find great personal fulfillment interacting with people, nurturing their personal development, guiding them to realize their human potential. Although they are happy working at jobs (such as writing) that require solitude and close attention, Counselors do quite well with individuals or groups of people, provided that the personal interactions are not superficial, and that they find some quiet, private time every now and then to recharge their batteries.


Champions are rather rare, say three or four percent of the population, but even more than the others they consider intense emotional experiences as being vital to a full life. Champions have a wide range and variety of emotions, and a great passion for novelty. They see life as an exciting drama, pregnant with possibilities for both good and evil, and they want to experience all the meaningful events and fascinating people in the world.


Healers present a calm and serene face to the world, and can seem shy, even distant around others. But inside they're anything but serene, having a capacity for personal caring rarely found in the other types. Healers care deeply about the inner life of a few special persons, or about a favorite cause in the world at large. And their great passion is to heal the conflicts that trouble individuals, or that divide groups, and thus to bring wholeness, or health, to themselves, their loved ones, and their community.

https://keirsey.com/temperament/idealist-overview/

[Morley]

Jersey, you have some solid ideals around child development. You would follow those even against your own self interest.

Perhaps I’m not making any sense. If not, I’ll step back.

You're exactly right. I got let go (at will contract) from a (back then very well paying) job where I worked for more than a dozen years, because I refused to incorporate violent and developmentally inappropriate Bible stories into my curriculum when the new Pastor wanted me to. Yes, I negotiated by presenting more appropriate Christian curriculum. Kindness, loving thy neighbor, being a good friend, I am wonderfully and fearfully made, how to be a helper, what is prayer? Go figure. I'm very proud of what I wouldn't do.

Example...

Imagine teaching the story of Cain and Abel to 4 year olds? Girls and boys do you have a brother or sister? Do you ever feel angry or jealous of them? You do? What do you do about it? Talk it out, that's a good idea! Try to calm down your feelings? That's another good idea! Well, I have a story to tell you about a brother who had those feelings and you'll never guess what he did about it!

I kid you not at all. That story was on their list including crucifixion and I wouldn't lead prayer before snack because I didn't want the LDS children criticized by other children for the way they arranged their arms in prayer, didn't want children from atheist families to feel left out and the school was always a community school from it's inception.

My entire staff voluntarily left their own jobs when I was let go. A year later, the church regional/state office conducted an investigation into the pastor and demanded that he resign or return with a pscyh eval. I am NOT joking here. He had breached confidentiality of members of his own congregation, tried to smear my professional reputation (don't worry I wrote a well documented response letter for their board), and was an all around crackpot. The final determination letter was read to me over the phone by a parent. They also found that I was let go without cause and without proper procedure.

When I took on a new position (not administrative) and had a report for CPS, I would give it to the administrators as requested and unbeknownst to them, I made the call myself because I knew they didn't want to make waves with their higher ups. So yeah, you are right about me.

Good work. Reading what you've posted in the past, I would have been surprised to have learned you hadn't had such an experience. The field of education is full of landmines, especially for those idealists who insist on putting the intellectual and emotional welfare of the child first.


edit: (God, rereading that last sentence, I sound bitter.)

[Morley]

I’m not seeing it, Gad. I can’t figure out what idea or ideal the January Sixers would be after. Loyalty to Trump, yes. Loyalty to some abstract ideal? I don’t know what it would be.

Freedom. An epic battle of light and darkness, good and evil, fashioned after all of the movies they've loved over the years. The QAnon guy in my neighborhood was completely pumped over his opportunity to fight for God and all that is good and holy, freedom, prosperity. He was ready to take a bullet the very day I spoke with him and die if need be. It's as much about the evil of the Empire as it is the good of Trump. The nefarious common enemy. The assault on family values and right-thinking protestantism. It's living your own TV mini-series written by Hollywood liberals.

The abstract ideal though, is freedom.

Ehh, I'm still not so sure. Reading about what the insurrectionists on trial have had to say, they seem pretty willing to wash their past behaviors away in a flood of gosh-I'm-so-sorry tears. In short, I'm not seeing many "Give me liberty or give me death" types. (Maybe Steve Bannon is one--I don't know.)

If it really came down to it, I kind of doubt your friend really would have been willing to stand before a firing squad and take a bullet for Donald and God.

[Morley]

On another thread:



I've lived my life based on certain Idealistic premises. I joined the service, got married, got divorced, participated in religion, left religion, chose my profession, attended university, and chose another profession, all based on what I thought was a set of "what is the right thing to do" principles. Though not all of these panned out, I still maintain a sort of idealist framework that I work from.

Increasingly, I've come to fear that we live in a post-idealistic world. I see the 6th of January as a signpost on this road. What happens to us when everything, every concept, every ideal, every fact, is up for grabs and subject to redefinition and subsumed by relentless, spur-of-the-moment reframing? (I'm thinking, for example, of a fellow poster's insistence that 'nuance' will excuse anything.)

Heh. Maybe I'm just profoundly depressed by the anniversary of the capital insurrection. I dunno.

What are your thoughts?

Hi Morley,

I'm actually glad to see our populist friend emerge and offer his shadow to allow us to better see the light in this discussion.

in my opinion, the challenge of the 21st century is that we have become almost entirely defined by what we are against and lack values and principles that define our aims. Above, Gad suggests that the populist insurgents rose up in favor of freedom. I strongly disagree. They rose up because they are against. They are against liberals. They are against change. They are against whatever their handlers point them at and snarl, "This thing, thou shalt HATE it!" They make light motifs their causes, glosses their muse, demand government reduce spending one year and cheer it the next because whatever they are against didn't require them to be against spending that year.

We need idealism like never before because we have to be for something in order to create, to progress, to relight the fire of true freedom on principles and values just as the nation was founded on principles and values. If we fail over and over again to achieve perfection in the ideal, that is not the fault of ideal or even of us. Reality is that perfection is out of our grasp...but we must reach for it nonetheless. Ours is to strive for the ideal, to understand it better, to live for it better.

Or, you know, post-modernism something-something, critique is sufficient something-something, this, instead, is the better thing to hate.

And then...not with a bang, but a whimper. Or, maybe an AR-15. Something, anyway. Or nothing.

My 2cents on the subject.

Beautiful. I think you've summed it up.

Even BLM has the half thought-out rationale of "Defund the Police!" We're not for anything, we're just against the police.

Critiques are the easy part of any process. Coming up with something better that works is where things get hairy. It's why most revolutions, in the end, fail.

[Morley]

My "America 1776 vs France 1789" comparison...

I think it was a spot-on analogy.

So did I.

[Morley]

I may have too much emotion invested to talk about this. I'm not sure I'm making any sense. Taking a few days off.

Thank you everyone.