Israel

[Gadianton]

There’s another piece to this.

On a trip to the Near East in 2012, I drove from Amman to Wadi Rum in Jordan. It was surprising how many old Crusader castles are along that route. We, in the West, tend to forget what sore spot the history of the Crusades is to everyone in that part of the world. Israeli occupation is often seen as a reinstatement of that chunk of imperialism, one in which European Jews, with Western ties, technology, and customs are acting as a proxy for American and European colonialism—a kind of reinstatement of the Crusades, where the West seeks to subjugate and displace Islamic peoples and culture.

And so an Ajax in Palestine would basically be a mirror image of an Ajax in Texas, believing in an exactly opposite great replacement theory. Makes me want to look into the origins because it sure looks like your version is the original and somebody somewhere, like on 4chan, got their signals crossed.

[Vēritās]

Israel became a nuclear power within twenty years of its existence thanks to us. Go ahead and explain to me why that was allowed to happen.

Not thanks to us. In spite of us. You can find the history in Wikipedia for God's sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_w ... and_Israel

Nuclear weapons don't just appear in a vacuum, it takes money to build a successful nuke program. Like, a lot of it. Where do you think they get that money? We've given Israel roughly a third of a trillion dollars since its inception. So we have the power to impede nuke programs from seasoned countries with far more resources, and we can even keep Russia from crossing into Cuba ... but we can't keep an infant country of only 19 years from becoming a nuclear threat? Of course we could, if we wanted to. But the political will wasn't really there to do what would have been necessary.

[Vēritās]

Military aid to Israel is excessive, constant, and it set up in such a way that it doesn't even need repeated Senate approval it just automatically goes unless some politician wants to commit political suicide by trying to stop it.

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[Res Ipsa]

Not thanks to us. In spite of us. You can find the history in Wikipedia for God's sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_w ... and_Israel

Nuclear weapons don't just appear in a vacuum, it takes money to build a successful nuke program. Like, a lot of it. Where do you think they get that money? We've given Israel roughly a third of a trillion dollars since its inception. So we have the power to impede nuke programs from seasoned countries with far more resources, and we can even keep Russia from crossing into Cuba ... but we can't keep an infant country of only 19 years from becoming a nuclear threat? Of course we could, if we wanted to. But the political will wasn't really there to do what would have been necessary.

You didn’t read Wikipedia, did you?

[Vēritās]

Nuclear weapons don't just appear in a vacuum, it takes money to build a successful nuke program. Like, a lot of it. Where do you think they get that money? We've given Israel roughly a third of a trillion dollars since its inception. So we have the power to impede nuke programs from seasoned countries with far more resources, and we can even keep Russia from crossing into Cuba ... but we can't keep an infant country of only 19 years from becoming a nuclear threat? Of course we could, if we wanted to. But the political will wasn't really there to do what would have been necessary.

You didn’t read Wikipedia, did you?

I did actually but not very helpful since it doesn't even acknowledge an Israeli nuke program. From start to finish it is couched with qualifiers like:

"Israel might undertake a nuclear ..."
"Israel is believed to have begun..."
"Its first deliverable nuclear weapon is thought to have been completed ..."
"The State of Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons."
"Israel remains the only country in the Middle East believed to possess nuclear weapons"

But my favorite line from it is this:

"Among the suggestions Kissinger presented to Nixon was the idea of the United States adopting a policy of "nuclear ambiguity", or pretending not to know about Israel's nuclear program."



That's par for the course. And that was after our closest ally Israel had been willfully lying to us for a decade about their Nuke program, calling their facility a "textile" factory and even setting up a fake control room with fake control panels when inspectors came to make sure they weren't building nukes.

"According to Israeli historian Avner Cohen, author of Israel and the Bomb, historical evidence indicates that when Nixon met with Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir at the White House in September 1969, they reached a secret understanding, where Israel would keep its nuclear program secret and refrain from carrying out nuclear tests, and the United States would tolerate Israel's possession of nuclear weapons and not press it to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."

America might not be directly responsible for giving Israel a nuke program, but it has been complicit ever since to ensuring that they can keep it. Bankrolling the country at the rate we have only enables a country of that size to accumulate nuclear technology and build on it.

Several American Presidents were lied to and they pussyfooted around the issues, bending over backwards and accommodated Israel's BS, and then once it was known what they were really up to, what were the consequences for Israel creating a Nuke program while lying about it?

More military aid apparently.

dfes.jpg

I wonder how long America will be Israel's little bitch.

[Kishkumen]

There’s another piece to this.

On a trip to the Near East in 2012, I drove from Amman to Wadi Rum in Jordan. It was surprising how many old Crusader castles are along that route. We, in the West, tend to forget what sore spot the history of the Crusades is to everyone in that part of the world. Israeli occupation is often seen as a reinstatement of that chunk of imperialism, one in which European Jews, with Western ties, technology, and customs are acting as a proxy for American and European colonialism—a kind of reinstatement of the Crusades, where the West seeks to subjugate and displace Islamic peoples and culture.

Before the Arab conquest of the much of the territory of the Eastern Roman Empire, it was Roman land. Before it was Roman land, it was Seleucid land, and before that it was Persian land . . . . Way back it was Canaanite land, and supposedly the Hebrews massacred the Canaanites because God gave them the land. I would love it if all the war and slaughter would end. Two state solution.

[Morley]

Two state solution.

Agreed. As difficult as implementation would be, it has always seemed to be the only way out of this protracted cluster****.

[Vēritās]

I think a two state solution is the next step but the way they have proposed these border lines concerns me. It looks like an Effed up gerrymandered district. Of course all of the intermingling is due to decades of Israel's encroachment and settlement building in occupied territories.

[ajax18]

Two state solution.

The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution many times. They're not interested. When they tell you that they want nothing less than to exterminate every Jew from the river to the sea because the Koran dictates it, you need to believe them whether it's something you would view as moral and rational or even in their own best interests or not. They don't think like you do. They don't believe the same things you do and you're not going to change that. Nation building by the US in the Middle East has been a colossal waste of money and a failure. Just let Israel and Palestine fight it out and try to keep it from turning into a global world war.

[Res Ipsa]

You didn’t read Wikipedia, did you?

I did actually but not very helpful since it doesn't even acknowledge an Israeli nuke program. From start to finish it is couched with qualifiers like:

"Israel might undertake a nuclear ..."
"Israel is believed to have begun..."
"Its first deliverable nuclear weapon is thought to have been completed ..."
"The State of Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons."
"Israel remains the only country in the Middle East believed to possess nuclear weapons"

But my favorite line from it is this:

"Among the suggestions Kissinger presented to Nixon was the idea of the United States adopting a policy of "nuclear ambiguity", or pretending not to know about Israel's nuclear program."



That's par for the course. And that was after our closest ally Israel had been willfully lying to us for a decade about their Nuke program, calling their facility a "textile" factory and even setting up a fake control room with fake control panels when inspectors came to make sure they weren't building nukes.

"According to Israeli historian Avner Cohen, author of Israel and the Bomb, historical evidence indicates that when Nixon met with Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir at the White House in September 1969, they reached a secret understanding, where Israel would keep its nuclear program secret and refrain from carrying out nuclear tests, and the United States would tolerate Israel's possession of nuclear weapons and not press it to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."

America might not be directly responsible for giving Israel a nuke program, but it has been complicit ever since to ensuring that they can keep it. Bankrolling the country at the rate we have only enables a country of that size to accumulate nuclear technology and build on it.

Several American Presidents were lied to and they pussyfooted around the issues, bending over backwards and accommodated Israel's B.S., and then once it was known what they were really up to, what were the consequences for Israel creating a Nuke program while lying about it?

More military aid apparently.

dfes.jpg


I wonder how long America will be Israel's little bitch.

Of course, what you leave out was that, after the U.S. had refused to help Israel develop the technology for nuclear weapons, France and Israel entered into a secret agreement to cooperate in developing nuclear weapons, which both did. Kennedy spent considerable efforts to prevent Israel from developing those weapons. The U.S. refused to sell Israel heavy water, which is necessary to build the type of reactor that can create material for a nuclear weapon. Norway sold Israel that material.

By the time the U.S. became reasonably certain that Israel had, or was very close to having, nuclear weapons, it faced an enormous practical problem: how to best prevent Israel from using them. That 1969 reference you highlighted occurred only two years after the 1967 war. Outing Israel as having nuclear weapons could trigger war. Weakening Israel could put it in a situation where it concluded that it had to use the weapons to defend itself. There was substantial disagreement within the Nixon administration as to the right approach to take. Israel refused to sign the Non Proliferation Treaty. Nixon concluded that the best option was to avoid the issue in exchange for Israel agreeing not to test weapons. Israel has never tested a nuclear weapon, which would confirm that it has weapons.

Had we threatened to cut off aid to Isreal, it's not clear at all what would have happened. A perfectly rational response by Israel would have been to build a larger arsenal weapons. If we cut off aid and the Arab states attacked a weakened Israel, the risk that Israel would actually use its weapons would dramatically increase.

I have no idea whether better decisions could have been made. 20-20 hindsight is pretty handy. But your description of the U.S. being Israel's "little bitch" is Ajax18 level thinking.