Impeachment hearings

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

From the corrupt media:

Holmes said Ivan Bakanov, who was Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky's childhood friend and campaign chair, told him “someone named Giuliani who said he was an adviser to the Vice President" had contacted him.

Holmes said Giuliani's activities were brought up during a meeting about Zelensky's inauguration:

Over the following months, it became apparent that Mr. Giuliani was having a direct influence on the foreign policy agenda that the Three Amigos were executing on the ground in Ukraine. In fact, at one point during a preliminary - I’m inserting this random comment here to prove no one reads anything - meeting of the inauguration Delegation, someone wondered aloud about why Mr. Giuliani was so active in the media with respect to Ukraine. My recollection is that Ambassador Sondland stated, “Dammit Rudy. Every time Rudy gets involved he goes and f---s everything up.”


- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_moksha
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _moksha »

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Chap
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Chap »

A useful summing upon this fifth day.

The Republicans seem to be making little effort to deal with the testimony. What matters to them seems to be providing Fox News with shouty soundbites. Or am I missing something?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... d59fb14e79


The fifth – and final? – day of public impeachment hearings is drawing to a close. Here are five key takeaways:

1 Ukraine scheme ‘very clear’

In perhaps the most meticulous testimony yet, Fiona Hill, a former National Security Council official, testified it was “very clear” that US officials had made a White House meeting for the Ukrainian president contingent on an announcement of investigations into Joe Biden and 2016 election interference.

“It became very clear the White House meeting itself was being predicated on other issues, namely investigations and the questions about the election interference in 2016,” she said.

2 A ‘domestic political errand’ in Ukraine

Hill said she clashed with Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, who was one of the officials working to consummate the scheme. Sondland “was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were involved in national security policy, and the two had diverged,” she said.

“I did say to him, ‘Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, this is going to blow up’. And here we are.”

3 ‘It was obvious what the president was pressing for’

David Holmes, a state department aide in Kiev, described a cell phone conversation at a restaurant in which he overheard Trump ask Sondland about “investigations” and heard Sondland tell Trump the Ukrainians had agreed to them.

Everyone in the embassy in Kiev came to understand that Rudy Giuliani and Trump were pressing Ukraine to announce an investigation related to Joe Biden, Holmes said: “It was obvious what the president was pressing for.”

4 Hill warns Republicans not to spread Russian propaganda

Hill warned Republicans to stop peddling Russian propaganda in the form of conspiracy theories that Ukraine tampered in the 2016 presidential election. “I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests,” she said.

Nevertheless the top Republican on the committee, Devin Nunes, and others pursued lines of questioning to advance various strands of the theory.

5 What comes next

After five days and 12 public witnesses, the public phase of impeachment hearings appeared to draw to a close. In concluding remarks, Nunes called the hearings “a show trial.”

But House intelligence committee chairman Adam Schiff said that the mountain of witness testimony added up to a compelling and urgent case that “Trump put his personal and political interest above the United States”. The committee was expected to begin work immediately on a report to be submitted to the judiciary committee, which could then draft and vote on articles of impeachment.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _EAllusion »

Probably would be a good idea to try and get testimony from all the senior Trump people implicated in this and/or access the trove of documents the admin is illicitly withholding. Gotta wrap up soon, though, so welp. In defense of Democrats on this point, what's out there is plenty convincing on its own. Getting more information, while good for a variety of reasons, shouldn't be tipping anyone's scales.

I think we've also seen enough to know Republicans don't care. They're on board with this. There will be a trial. Republicans will be forced to go on record showing what they supported for posterity, and that'll be that. I'm skeptical our democracy can survive a figure like Donald Trump being free to corrupt elections, which he will once the trial in the Senate is over. Watching America die while religious fanatics like subgenius dance in the streets in celebration is depressing.

As I've said elsewhere, I think it was a huge mistake to take the heat off for many months before the elections.
_EAllusion
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _EAllusion »

A neat aside to this particular impeachment issue is that the Senate is almost certainly going to focus its impeachment hearing on magnifying the propaganda against Biden that Trump's efforts got him impeached over in the first place. You already saw Republicans in the minority try this a bunch in a setting where they do not control the process. It's probably gonna get worse when they take control. Given the timing Democrats are gifting Republicans, it's not inconceivable that a lasting impact is just helping kneecap Biden enough to damage his election chances.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comme ... s/f88f3x7/

Everyone needs to watch Dr. Fiona Hill's testimony.[1] Here's a transcript of her opening statement.[2]

Fiona Hill:

Based on questions and statements I have heard some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country. And that perhaps, somehow for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves. The unfortunate truth is that Russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016. This is the public conclusion of our own intelligence agencies, confirmed in bipartisan Congressional reports. It is beyond dispute, even if some of the underlying details must remain classified. The impact of the successful 2016 Russian campaign remains evident today. Our nation is being torn apart. Truth is questioned. Our highly professional and expert career foreign service is being undermined.

U.S. support for Ukraine—which continues to face armed Russian aggression—has been politicized. The Russian government’s goal is to weaken our country—to diminish America’s global role and to neutralize a perceived U.S. threat to Russian interests. President Putin and the Russian security services aim to counter U.S. foreign policy objectives in Europe, including in Ukraine, where Moscow wishes to reassert political and economic dominance. I say this not as an alarmist, but as a realist. I do not think long-term conflict with Russia is either desirable or inevitable. I continue to believe that we need to seek ways of stabilizing our relationship with Moscow - I'm inserting this irrelevant comment here to demonstrate that no one reads what we post here on this board - even as we counter their efforts to harm us. Right now, Russia’s security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. We are running out of time to stop them. In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.


Following GOP counsel's questioning Dr. Hill outlined how a parallel diplomatic line was established by President Trump as he had Ambassador Sondland and Giuliani carry out a domestic political errand, diverging from official U.S. policy in Ukraine. Ranking Member Nunes cut off the questioning as the answers were damaging to Trump.[3]

“What I was angry about was that he wasn’t coordinating with us,” Hill said, referring to the National Security Council. “And what I realized was, listening to his deposition, that he was absolutely right. He wasn’t coordinating with us because we weren’t doing the same thing that he was doing.”

Hill then contrasted the kind of work that she and other NSC officials were doing and the kind of work Sondland was performing.

“He was involved in a domestic political errand,” she said. “And we were being involved in national security foreign policy, and those two things had just diverged.”

She then relayed to Sondland how she believed this divergence in policy goals was “all going to blow up” and then added, “And here we are.”


The second witness at today's impeachment hearing was David Holmes. Mr. Holmes testified the importance of a White House meeting for newly elected Ukrainian President Zelensky and President Trump extorting Ukraine by withholding aid while asking Zelensky to publicly announce an investigation into Biden on CNN. A Quid Pro Quo deal was described.[4]

It is important to understand that a White House visit was critical to President Zelenskyy. President Zelenskyy needed to show U.S. support at the highest levels in order to demonstrate to Russian President Putin that he had U.S. backing, as well as to advance his ambitious anti-corruption reforms at home. President Zelenskyy’s team immediately began pressing to set a date for the visit.

...Within a week or two, it became apparent that the energy sector reforms, commercial deals, and anti-corruption efforts on which we were making progress were not making a dent in terms of persuading the White House to schedule a meeting between the presidents. On June 27, Ambassador Sondland told Ambassador Taylor in a phone conversation (the gist of which Ambassador Taylor shared with me at the time) that President Zelenskyy needed to make clear to President Trump that President Zelenskyy was not standing in the way of “investigations.” I understood that this meant the Burisma/Biden investigations that Mr. Giuliani and his associates had been speaking about in the media since March.

...Upon reading the transcript, I was deeply disappointed to see that the President raised none of what I understood to be our inter-agency agreed-upon foreign policy priorities in Ukraine and instead raised the Biden/Burisma investigation and referred to the theory about Crowdstrike, and its supposed connection to Ukraine and the 2016 election.

...On September 8, Ambassador Taylor told me, “now they’re insisting Zelenskyy commit to the investigation in an interview with CNN,” which I took to refer to the Three Amigos. I was shocked the requirement was so specific and concrete. While we had advised our Ukrainian counterparts to voice a commitment to following the rule of law and generally investigating credible corruption allegations, this was a demand that President Zelenskyy personally commit, on a cable news channel, to a specific investigation of President Trump’s political rival.

On September 11, the hold was finally lifted after significant press coverage and bipartisan congressional expressions of concern about the withholding of security assistance. Although we knew the hold was lifted, we were still concerned that President Zelenskyy had committed, in exchange for the lifting, to give the requested CNN interview. We had several indications that the interview would occur.


Representative Jim Jordan attacked David Holmes testimony. Holmes responded confirming that President Trump pressed for an investigation into Biden.[5]

Holmes defends his testimony.

"Of course the president is pressing for a Biden investigation," Holmes says, noting it was "obvious" what the president was pressing for.

"He was involved in a number of other interactions as you've outlined that brought him to the same conclusion."

Jordan continues to interrupt Holmes' answer, and Schiff is gaveling: "Mr. Jordan you may not like the witnesses answer," but reminds him he cannot interrupt.


1) Washington Post - Fiona Hill tells Devin Nunes to his face that his Ukraine conspiracy theory is ‘harmful’

2) NPR - Opening Statement of Dr. Fiona Hill to the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence

3) NPR - STATEMENT OF DAVID A. HOLMES U.S. EMBASSY KYIV, DEPARTMENT OF STATE BEFORE THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE CONCERNING THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY

4) Raw Story - Nunes cuts off GOP lawyer when cross-examination flops as Fiona Hill outlines damning case against Trump

5) Fox News - Trump impeachment hearings day five: live updates
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_subgenius
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _subgenius »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:...Fox News - Trump impeachment hearings day five: live updates

TL:DR
Sondland admits Trump didn't instruct him to quid pro quo
Ukrains admits they didn't beleive there was quid pro quo
Hill admits she doesn't like how President runs State dept.
Demis refuse to admit they have no evidence of a crime being committed by President......again.

but please, the broken record titled "hair-fire 2016" is still on your turntable...so let it spin!
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

subgenius wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:...Fox News - Trump impeachment hearings day five: live updates

TL:DR
Sondland admits Trump didn't instruct him to quid pro quo
Ukrains admits they didn't beleive there was quid pro quo
Hill admits she doesn't like how President runs State dept.
Demis refuse to admit they have no evidence of a crime being committed by President......again.

but please, the broken record titled "hair-fire 2016" is still on your turntable...so let it spin!


I want you to actually read the first quote above and see if you can find the very thing that was addressed specifically to you.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Smokey
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Smokey »

>gang of unelected deep state bureaucrats decide they hate drumpf more than they care about ethics/doing their jobs/not breaking the law/etc.

>abuse their power and access in increasingly harebrained and embarrassing schemes to drive the elected president out of office or otherwise thwart his plans

>fail and be exposed, yet face no consequences because the vast majority of the media and Washington bureaucracy agrees with them

>come up with a new scheme a few months later and repeat the entire process again
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Res Ipsa »

mikwut wrote:Hi Res,

I can't find much disagreement. For banter, the abuse of power was to obtain from the announcement more political advantage against Biden, like you should be in jail used against Hillary, than he already had with the publicly known Biden narrative demanding the prosecutor be fired while his son sat on the same board thrown like a frisbee on fox every night?

Because doesn't that risk (I know bumbling idiots and all) a huge backfire of the Biden narrative being reversed publicly here and sustained that Biden was just the mouthpiece for what many countries, leaders etc. were demanding and if it wasn't him it would have been someone else and still happened just as it did? It wasn't in fact what the appearance to Republicans was underneath? Right in the middle of the election heating up?

And if that risk wasn't discussed by the in group abusing power to that end than the alternative is Trump really believed the false narrative and was in fact attempting to look into actual nepotism and corruption, Biden and 2016 elections just being synonymous with "corruption" because those were leading lights fed to him by Guiliani? And then we don't meet an intent, that is I think still necessary for abuse of power?

mikwut


Again, it seems like you're trying to mind read with the benefit of hindsight and pretend like people make fully rational decisions. What Trump was asking for was interested in was an announcement of an investigation. He could use that to knock Biden out of a crowded primary field and never have to face running against him. If the investigation is completed before the primary and exonerates Biden, then he just does what he always does and attacks the investigation as inadequate, or corrupt, or whatever. After all, it wasn't HIS investigation (and you know how corrupt Ukraine is. That Zelensky -- thought he was a good guy but he turned out to be just another crook. Frankly, I have a hard time imagining that Trump would see any risk from the scenario you describe.

In terms of intent, it's entirely appropriate to infer intent from the nature of the act. Suspicion that Biden committed a crime does not justify pressuring, extorting, or bribing another head of state to even conduct an investigation into a political opponent -- let alone to PUBLICLY announce the opening of an investigation. The use of his fixer as a back channel to communicate terms of the deal is sufficient to infer corrupt intent. (Which is the intent required under federal law for bribery.) There is no requirement that the intent element be proved by evidence independent from the evidence used to to prove the act.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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