Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

[_Kevin Graham]

Two simple requests, EAllusion.

1 - Provide an extended form of evidence (for example, a different, extended video clip other than the viral video) that supports your claim that the kid at the center of this "behaved badly".
2 - Provide reasonable evidence that the kids generally were "behaving badly". I'd like to see what you mean by this claim. As in, don't just say they did the tomahawk chop and should be ashamed. Demonstrate what you mean by it with evidence.

Thanks.

I should note, you seem to be missing that I take issue with your claims about what the kids actually did. And I do this in the context of what has been reported, demonstrated in longer, more comprehensive videos, and different angles that show different views of what was going on in that space at that time. You seem to think it should be taken as a given that there is something that took place there that at least justifies attaching meaning to it that is larger than what happened. I'm asking you to back that up with more than just casual claims that it should be apparent because the kid in the center of it is on video smirking in a clip that was promoted by a fake Twitter account.

Why is it too difficult to acknowledge that there are legitimate differences of opinion on whether these kids misbehaved?

Some here have stated they did nothing illegal. No question about that.

Some people argued that Sandmann was within his rights to act the way he did. Again, no question about that either.

But when it comes to the question of acting wrongly or misbehaving, you're going to get different views because they're subjective. I stated from the beginning that if my kid had acted that way with any elderly person, Native Indian or not, I would have reprimanded him because I teach my kids to respect their elders. My 12 year old son has been opening doors for elderly folks since he was five.

Of course it is one thing not to open the door for someone, but it is something entirely different to just stand in their way and block them from their path. And this is what happened. I don't need "reporting" to tell me what happened when i can see the video footage for myself.

The 3 minute stare down just added to the insult and even at this point some people, like you apparently, still feel the kid didn't misbehave at all.

Should any of this be in the news? No. I think the whole thing is stupid and shouldn't be used to deflect attention away from the dumpster fire that's going on at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

But this is the world we live in when anyone with an Iphone can upload video clips of whatever they way people to see.

[_Kevin Graham]

Turns out everything said about the kid in the viral video turned out to be wrong? Yeah ...

As far as I can tell the only thing that was reported incorrectly is on the question of who approached who first. That's it.

But for many folks, me included, it doesn't really matter who approach who. The kid was still blocking his path and the MAGA crowd immediately swarmed around the tiny group of Native demonstrators while "singing" along without invitation. Some of us interpreted that as mocking, but others see nothing but little white angels in red hats.

[_honorentheos]

Kevin -

Again, I don't think the arguments based on the viral video hold up. Watch the kid in the longer videos. Watch how the confrontation began and went down. I don't think its so much a difference of opinions as it is the evidence one is relying on to make a judgment.

You're right - the world we live in is one where video clips like the one that went viral will continue to happen. We'll also be subjected to advancing technologies that allow people to create really good fakes appearing to show people saying things they never said or doing things they never did. We need to develop the skills to live in that world. Imagining that being smart enough or informed enough will immunize us against being taken in by our biases. I argue instead that we need to learn to pause, let the evidence some in, not let the underlying position determine if we think something is fact or manufactured based on if it supports or contradicts our current beliefs, and instead realize the world we live in demands more rigorous commitments to engaging critically.

[_EAllusion]

There is a lot of space between, "nothing wrong" and "deserving that nation's scorn".

How many times do you need to be told that I, nor anyone here as best I can tell, is demanding national scorn by heaped upon the teens? I was the first person on this board who commented on the story who explicitly stated that I hope that doesn't happen. If there is national attention on a video where someone did something bad, we are capable saying its bad while also saying the offense doesn't rise to justifying a several million person hazing. Because you seem to not see anything all that racist about racial jeering of Native Americans, if the story was instead Convington teens in blackface (which for some other teens it was), I would feel the same way. On the one hand, that's a bad thing to do. On the other, people shouldn't be napalmed by the entire nation for having done it. It's possible to have these two thoughts in your head at the same time. Your options are not reflexive defensiveness of the teens' behavior or non-stop doxing and death threats.

It's also possible to see how such behavior connects to broader trends in American both in the past and present without treating those people as responsible for the entirety of those trends. It's not hard at all, in fact. So when you say,

But that pales in comparison to the outrage machine put in motion and tries to tie what happened to Trump or the whole history of racism in America.

It doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course racial mockery of Native Americans ties into the history of racism in America. How could it not? Donald Trump's repeated offensive references to Native Americans specifically and social outgroups in general is obviously going to be recalled when teens wearing his colors engage in racial taunting of Native Americans. None of this occurs in a vacuum.

[_EAllusion]

The irony here is Whataboutism is essentially the foundation for your own position, EAllusion. Turns out everything said about the kid in the viral video turned out to be wrong? Yeah, but whatabout Trump, racism in American, oh, and there were a handful of kids in the group who did a tomahawk chop at some point? Oh, and don't forget they are white, affluent kids attending a private Catholic high school so whataboutthat?

Again, despite you being the avatar of unbiased apprehension of facts, this bizarrely misreads just about everything I've said.

[_honorentheos]

Turns out everything said about the kid in the viral video turned out to be wrong? Yeah ...

As far as I can tell the only thing that was reported incorrectly is on the question of who approached who first. That's it.

But for many folks, me included, it doesn't really matter who approach who. The kid was still blocking his path and the MAGA crowd immediately swarmed around the tiny group of Native demonstrators while "singing" along without invitation. Some of us interpreted that as mocking, but others see nothing but little white angels in red hats.

Things that they got wrong:

The kids intended to interfer with a Native American demonstration.
The kids were wearing MAGA hats as a show of their political positions.
The kid in the center of the viral video was demonstrating contempt for Philips.
Philips was trying to move around and the kid didn't get out of his way. (Philips confronts the entire groups, standing there drumming for a minute or two after moving in front of them. Then he moves slowly up to the kids. The groups stand there jumping and clapping, some chant along, and largely they are interacting. Philips appears to move amongst them, and when he gets in front of the kid in the video, the kid just stands where he was standing. His expression over the entire period changes. The smirk isn't the main expression. At one point, with Philips drumming in front of him, he turns around to tap a kid on the shoulder and do a "cut it out" sign because the kid is arguing with another of the Native American group. When the bus comes, the kid leaves. Philips then turns around back to his group who is right behind him except for the guy who was a couple of steps up arguing with another kid who also shouts, "I won!" or something similar., etc., etc., etc.)
And there was nothing said about the BHI or why the kids where standing where they were, doing what they were doing, or just about anything that the most minimal amount of journalistic responsibility would have brought to light...and has brought to light.

Early on, Xeno posted a video link to an interview between Philips and a journalist at NPR. Watching it, you can watch the journalist trying to get Philips to explain himself clearly, to verify his motivations. And you can watch Philips confabulating to himself explanations for what he did and what motivated him that ultimately came down to his being prejudiced towards the kids.

There isn't much one can say was right in that early reporting. There were kids there. One of them was the kid in the video. He was wearing a MAGA hat. Philips is a Native American and he was there for a demostration.

[_honorentheos]

The irony here is Whataboutism is essentially the foundation for your own position, EAllusion. Turns out everything said about the kid in the viral video turned out to be wrong? Yeah, but whatabout Trump, racism in American, oh, and there were a handful of kids in the group who did a tomahawk chop at some point? Oh, and don't forget they are white, affluent kids attending a private Catholic high school so whataboutthat?

Again, despite you being the avatar of unbiased apprehension of facts, this bizarrely misreads just about everything I've said.

If you say so, but you could, you know, provide a clear example of what you are envisioning when you tell us the kids were behaving badly so it's clear from where you are drawing your perspective.

[_honorentheos]

There is a lot of space between, "nothing wrong" and "deserving that nation's scorn".

How many times do you need to be told that I, nor anyone here as best I can tell, is demanding national scorn by heaped upon the teens? I was the first person on this board who commented on the story who explicitly stated that I hope that doesn't happen.

You said you hoped it didn't ruin his life. But as evidence came to light largely suggesting it not only shouldn't ruin his life but shouldn't have even made it into the national conscious you ended that lengthy discussion justifying why it should be seen as part of a broader context for which shaming the kid is completely justified.

That's what you're still doing.

[_Jersey Girl]

Indeed, when Nicholas walked away quietly to board the bus, Phillips turned away from the Lincoln Memorial and outwardly celebrated some perceived “win” over Nicholas and his CovCath classmates, with his companion shouting “I got him, man, I got him! … We won grandpa, we damned won grandpa!”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... israelites

[_honorentheos]

Kevin -

Just start watching from here when Philips begins to move past the BHI to get in front of the kids. And then revisit what it is you'd use to justify giving your own kid a talking to over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-pFMZa ... .be&t=4344

Seriously. Where is the moment you see it is clear Philips was acting as if he wanted to pass through the group and the kid made the decision to be a prick?