Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

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_Droopy
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Droopy »

The scientific consensus is clearly expressed in the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).


Keep killing your argumenet and your intellectual credibility in this manner. Its just too precious.

Science is not done by consensus. Consensus is a feature of political decision making, not scientific work (which, yet again, admits unwittingly what AGW is really all about).

The IPCC is not a scientific body, but a political body, organized and maintained by a political organization for political reasons. Of the 2,500 members of the IPCC, only some 500 are actually scientists, and only a fraction of these are climate scientists (a small fraction of the "deniers" from climatology and related disciplines and scientific backgrounds now numbering in the tens of thousands world wide).

I notice that your entire argument here, as always, revolves not around the actual data and evidence, but a battle of credentialism (irrelevant in most cases, many of the skeptics being distinguished in their fields) and ad hominem circumstantials against those bringing ideologically unwanted information.

What about the facts?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Droopy »

The The American Meteorological Society, the American Geophysical Union ,
and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), IPCC.

all just a dream or communist conspiracy?
Riiiight.
and marx himself must have wrote this into wiki:


Uh huh, and the same "consensus" and the same crowing that the "science is settled" was flung about no more that 30 years ago by many of the same people (and the same kinds of people) regarding the coming ice age caused by human industrial activity and high western living standards.

Oh yeah, remember that? Capitalism and America were destroying the planet then too. Then, however, the climate crisis was of the opposite sign as the present one.

That the pathetic, desperate, power and control mad Left really believes, in the information and Internet age, that they can foist their vapid fantasies on the broad masses of people with impunity and get away with it in the way they could get away with it back in the good old days of the three networks and the NYT is astounding.

Oh yes, they can get away with much of it, at least for a time (primarily because of their cultural control of the public schools, higher ed, and the substantially shrunken but still influential mainstream media), but only until people begin to smell the stench of the roadkill. The Brits are waking up to the cult of environmentalism and the threat it poses to their own living standards and economic security, and we're beginning to take note here (a world food crisis provoked by America's junk science based and economically insane ethanol mandate, combined with a critical energy problem based in a 30 year moratorium on oil drilling, energy infrastructure construction, and nuclear power generation, all courtesy of the environmental movement (which is, yes, to a great degree, populated by those who still hold romantic notions and ideals regarding revolutionary socialism)).

Many of us have the number of folks like E and Tarski, including the area code and extension.

We won't be fooled again.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:
Uh huh, and the same "consensus" and the same crowing that the "science is settled" was flung about no more that 30 years ago by many of the same people (and the same kinds of people) regarding the coming ice age caused by human industrial activity and high western living standards.


I posted this in the thread I linked, which you participated in:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... ling-myth/

Every now and again, the myth that "we shouldn't believe global warming predictions now, because in the 1970's they were predicting an ice age and/or cooling" surfaces. Recently, George Will mentioned it in his column (see Will-full ignorance) and the egregious Crichton manages to say "in the 1970's all the climate scientists believed an ice age was coming" (see Michael Crichton’s State of Confusion ). You can find it in various other places too [here, mildly here, etc]. But its not an argument used by respectable and knowledgeable skeptics, because it crumbles under analysis. That doesn't stop it repeatedly cropping up in newsgroups though.

I should clarify that I'm talking about predictions in the scientific press. There were some regrettable things published in the popular press (e.g. Newsweek; though National Geographic did better). But we're only responsible for the scientific press. If you want to look at an analysis of various papers that mention the subject, then try http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/.

Where does the myth come from? Naturally enough, there is a kernel of truth behind it all. Firstly, there was a trend of cooling from the 40's to the 70's (although that needs to be qualified, as hemispheric or global temperature datasets were only just beginning to be assembled then). But people were well aware that extrapolating such a short trend was a mistake (Mason, 1976) . Secondly, it was becoming clear that ice ages followed a regular pattern and that interglacials (such as we are now in) were much shorter that the full glacial periods in between. Somehow this seems to have morphed (perhaps more in the popular mind than elsewhere) into the idea that the next ice age was predicatable and imminent. Thirdly, there were concerns about the relative magnitudes of aerosol forcing (cooling) and CO2 forcing (warming), although this latter strand seems to have been short lived.

The state of the science at the time (say, the mid 1970's), based on reading the papers is, in summary: "…we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate…" (which is taken directly from NAS, 1975). In a bit more detail, people were aware of various forcing mechanisms - the ice age cycle; CO2 warming; aerosol cooling - but didn't know which would be dominant in the near future. By the end of the 1970's, though, it had become clear that CO2 warming would probably be dominant; that conclusion has subsequently strengthened.

George Will asserts that Science magazine (Dec. 10, 1976) warned about "extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation.". The quote is from Hays et al. But the quote is taken grossly out of context. Here, in full, is the small section dealing with prediction:

Future climate. Having presented evidence that major changes in past climate were associated with variations in the geometry of the earth's orbit, we should be able to predict the trend of future climate. Such forecasts must be qualified in two ways. First, they apply only to the natural component of future climatic trends - and not to anthropogenic effects such as those due to the burning of fossil fuels. Second, they describe only the long-term trends, because they are linked to orbital variations with periods of 20,000 years and longer. Climatic oscillations at higher frequencies are not predicted.

One approach to forecasting the natural long-term climate trend is to estimate the time constants of response necessary to explain the observed phase relationships between orbital variation and climatic change, and then to use those time constants in the exponential-response model. When such a model is applied to Vernekar's (39) astronomical projections, the results indicate that the long-term trend over the next 20,000 years is towards extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation and cooler climate (80).

The point about timescales is worth noticing: predicting an ice age (even in the absence of human forcing) is almost impossible within a timescale that you could call "imminent" (perhaps a century: comparable to the scales typically used in global warming projections) because ice ages are slow, when caused by orbital forcing type mechanisms.

Will also quotes "a full-blown 10,000-year ice age" (Science, March 1, 1975). The quote is accurate, but the source isn't. The piece isn't from "Science"; it's from "Science News". There is a major difference: Science is (jointly with Nature) the most prestigous journal for natural science; Science News is not a peer-reviewed journal at all, though it is still respectable. In this case, its process went a bit wrong: the desire for a good story overwhelmed its reading of the NAS report which was presumably too boring to present directly.

The Hays paper above is the most notable example of the "ice age" strand. Indeed, its a very important paper in the history of climate, linking observed cycles in ocean sediment cores to orbital forcing periodicities. Of the other strand, aerosol cooling, Rasool and Schneider, Science, July 1971, p 138, "Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols: Effects of Large Increases on Global Climate" is the best exemplar. This contains the quote that quadrupling aerosols could decrease the mean surface temperature (of Earth) by as much as 3.5 degrees K. If sustained over a period of several years, such a temperature decrease could be sufficient to trigger an ice age!. But even this paper qualifies its predictions (whether or not aerosols would so increase was unknown) and speculates that nuclear power may have largely replaced fossil fuels as a means of energy production (thereby, presumably, removing the aerosol problem). There are, incidentally, other scientific problems with the paper: notably that the model used was only suitable for small perturbations but the results are for rather large perturbations; and that the estimate of CO2 sensitivity was too low by a factor of about 3.

Probably the best summary of the time was the 1975 NAS/NRC report. This is a serious sober assessment of what was known at the time, and their conclusion was that they didn't know enough to make predictions. From the "Summary of principal conclusions and recommendations", we find that they said we should:

1. Establish National climatic research program
2. Establish Climatic data analysis program, and new facilities, and studies of impact of climate on man
3. Develope Climatic index monitoring program
4. Establish Climatic modelling and applications program, and exploration of possible future climates using coupled GCMs
5. Adoption and development of International climatic research program
6. Development of International Palaeoclimatic data network

Which is to say, they recommended more research, not action. Which was entirely appropriate to the state of the science at the time. In the last 30 years, of course, enormous progress has been made in the field of climate science.

Most of this post has been about the science of 30 years ago. From the point of view of todays science, and with extra data available:

1. The cooling trend from the 40's to the 70's now looks more like a slight interruption of an upward trend (e.g. here). It turns out that the northern hemisphere cooling was larger than the southern (consistent with the nowadays accepted interpreation that the cooling was largely caused by sulphate aerosols); at first, only NH records were available.
2. Sulphate aerosols have not increased as much as once feared (partly through efforts to combat acid rain); CO2 forcing is greater. Indeed IPCC projections of future temperature inceases went up from the 1995 SAR to the 2001 TAR because estimates of future sulphate aerosol levels were lowered (SPM).
3. Interpretations of future changes in the Earth's orbit have changed somewhat. It now seems likely (Loutre and Berger, Climatic Change, 46: (1-2) 61-90 2000) that the current interglacial, based purely on natural forcing, would last for an exceptionally long time: perhaps 50,000 years.

Finally, its clear that there were concerns, perhaps quite strong, in the minds of a number of scientists of the time. And yet, the papers of the time present a clear consensus that future climate change could not be predicted with the knowledge then available. Apparently, the peer review and editing process involved in scientific publication was sufficient to provide a sober view. This episode shows the scientific press in a very good light; and a clear contrast to the lack of any such process in the popular press, then and now.

Further Reading:

Imbrie & Imbrie "Ice Ages: solving the mystery" (1979) is an interesting general book on the discovery of the ice ages and their mechanisms; chapter 16 deals with "The coming ice age".

Spencer Weart's History of Global Warming has a chapter on Past Cycles: Ice Age Speculations.

An analysis of various papers that mention the subject is at www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/.


(Again, click the link to read the imbedded links)

Darn flacks.
_EAllusion
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:
do you read original scientific papers on climatology outside of those referenced and interpreted by denialist websites?


I read the descriptive explanations and analysis of the issue by competent, distinguished, and eminent scientists in the field. I also follow journal articles on the web when I can find them, and analysis of them by competent analysts


So, no.

You could at least read Science.
_Droopy
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Uh huh, and the same "consensus" and the same crowing that the "science is settled" was flung about no more that 30 years ago by many of the same people (and the same kinds of people) regarding the coming ice age caused by human industrial activity and high western living standards.


I posted this in the thread I linked, which you participated in:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... ling-myth/

Every now and again, the myth that "we shouldn't believe global warming predictions now, because in the 1970's they were predicting an ice age and/or cooling" surfaces. Recently, George Will mentioned it in his column (see Will-full ignorance) and the egregious Crichton manages to say "in the 1970's all the climate scientists believed an ice age was coming" (see Michael Crichton’s State of Confusion ). You can find it in various other places too [here, mildly here, etc]. But its not an argument used by respectable and knowledgeable skeptics, because it crumbles under analysis. That doesn't stop it repeatedly cropping up in newsgroups though.

I should clarify that I'm talking about predictions in the scientific press. There were some regrettable things published in the popular press (e.g. Newsweek; though National Geographic did better). But we're only responsible for the scientific press. If you want to look at an analysis of various papers that mention the subject, then try http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/.

Where does the myth come from? Naturally enough, there is a kernel of truth behind it all. Firstly, there was a trend of cooling from the 40's to the 70's (although that needs to be qualified, as hemispheric or global temperature datasets were only just beginning to be assembled then). But people were well aware that extrapolating such a short trend was a mistake (Mason, 1976) . Secondly, it was becoming clear that ice ages followed a regular pattern and that interglacials (such as we are now in) were much shorter that the full glacial periods in between. Somehow this seems to have morphed (perhaps more in the popular mind than elsewhere) into the idea that the next ice age was predicatable and imminent. Thirdly, there were concerns about the relative magnitudes of aerosol forcing (cooling) and CO2 forcing (warming), although this latter strand seems to have been short lived.

The state of the science at the time (say, the mid 1970's), based on reading the papers is, in summary: "…we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate…" (which is taken directly from NAS, 1975). In a bit more detail, people were aware of various forcing mechanisms - the ice age cycle; CO2 warming; aerosol cooling - but didn't know which would be dominant in the near future. By the end of the 1970's, though, it had become clear that CO2 warming would probably be dominant; that conclusion has subsequently strengthened.

George Will asserts that Science magazine (Dec. 10, 1976) warned about "extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation.". The quote is from Hays et al. But the quote is taken grossly out of context. Here, in full, is the small section dealing with prediction:

Future climate. Having presented evidence that major changes in past climate were associated with variations in the geometry of the earth's orbit, we should be able to predict the trend of future climate. Such forecasts must be qualified in two ways. First, they apply only to the natural component of future climatic trends - and not to anthropogenic effects such as those due to the burning of fossil fuels. Second, they describe only the long-term trends, because they are linked to orbital variations with periods of 20,000 years and longer. Climatic oscillations at higher frequencies are not predicted.

One approach to forecasting the natural long-term climate trend is to estimate the time constants of response necessary to explain the observed phase relationships between orbital variation and climatic change, and then to use those time constants in the exponential-response model. When such a model is applied to Vernekar's (39) astronomical projections, the results indicate that the long-term trend over the next 20,000 years is towards extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation and cooler climate (80).

The point about timescales is worth noticing: predicting an ice age (even in the absence of human forcing) is almost impossible within a timescale that you could call "imminent" (perhaps a century: comparable to the scales typically used in global warming projections) because ice ages are slow, when caused by orbital forcing type mechanisms.

Will also quotes "a full-blown 10,000-year ice age" (Science, March 1, 1975). The quote is accurate, but the source isn't. The piece isn't from "Science"; it's from "Science News". There is a major difference: Science is (jointly with Nature) the most prestigous journal for natural science; Science News is not a peer-reviewed journal at all, though it is still respectable. In this case, its process went a bit wrong: the desire for a good story overwhelmed its reading of the NAS report which was presumably too boring to present directly.

The Hays paper above is the most notable example of the "ice age" strand. Indeed, its a very important paper in the history of climate, linking observed cycles in ocean sediment cores to orbital forcing periodicities. Of the other strand, aerosol cooling, Rasool and Schneider, Science, July 1971, p 138, "Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols: Effects of Large Increases on Global Climate" is the best exemplar. This contains the quote that quadrupling aerosols could decrease the mean surface temperature (of Earth) by as much as 3.5 degrees K. If sustained over a period of several years, such a temperature decrease could be sufficient to trigger an ice age!. But even this paper qualifies its predictions (whether or not aerosols would so increase was unknown) and speculates that nuclear power may have largely replaced fossil fuels as a means of energy production (thereby, presumably, removing the aerosol problem). There are, incidentally, other scientific problems with the paper: notably that the model used was only suitable for small perturbations but the results are for rather large perturbations; and that the estimate of CO2 sensitivity was too low by a factor of about 3.

Probably the best summary of the time was the 1975 NAS/NRC report. This is a serious sober assessment of what was known at the time, and their conclusion was that they didn't know enough to make predictions. From the "Summary of principal conclusions and recommendations", we find that they said we should:

1. Establish National climatic research program
2. Establish Climatic data analysis program, and new facilities, and studies of impact of climate on man
3. Develope Climatic index monitoring program
4. Establish Climatic modelling and applications program, and exploration of possible future climates using coupled GCMs
5. Adoption and development of International climatic research program
6. Development of International Palaeoclimatic data network

Which is to say, they recommended more research, not action. Which was entirely appropriate to the state of the science at the time. In the last 30 years, of course, enormous progress has been made in the field of climate science.

Most of this post has been about the science of 30 years ago. From the point of view of todays science, and with extra data available:

1. The cooling trend from the 40's to the 70's now looks more like a slight interruption of an upward trend (e.g. here). It turns out that the northern hemisphere cooling was larger than the southern (consistent with the nowadays accepted interpreation that the cooling was largely caused by sulphate aerosols); at first, only NH records were available.
2. Sulphate aerosols have not increased as much as once feared (partly through efforts to combat acid rain); CO2 forcing is greater. Indeed IPCC projections of future temperature inceases went up from the 1995 SAR to the 2001 TAR because estimates of future sulphate aerosol levels were lowered (SPM).
3. Interpretations of future changes in the Earth's orbit have changed somewhat. It now seems likely (Loutre and Berger, Climatic Change, 46: (1-2) 61-90 2000) that the current interglacial, based purely on natural forcing, would last for an exceptionally long time: perhaps 50,000 years.

Finally, its clear that there were concerns, perhaps quite strong, in the minds of a number of scientists of the time. And yet, the papers of the time present a clear consensus that future climate change could not be predicted with the knowledge then available. Apparently, the peer review and editing process involved in scientific publication was sufficient to provide a sober view. This episode shows the scientific press in a very good light; and a clear contrast to the lack of any such process in the popular press, then and now.

Further Reading:

Imbrie & Imbrie "Ice Ages: solving the mystery" (1979) is an interesting general book on the discovery of the ice ages and their mechanisms; chapter 16 deals with "The coming ice age".

Spencer Weart's History of Global Warming has a chapter on Past Cycles: Ice Age Speculations.

An analysis of various papers that mention the subject is at http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/.


(Again, click the link to read the imbedded links)

Darn flacks.


This is a pristine example of precisely the kind of carefully constructed sophistry Gavin Schmidt and Realclimate participate in on a regular basis and for which the site was created.

The global cooling hysteria was real, and it was many of the same environmental and anti-technology groups, and the same people, fomenting it then, as with AGW now. The cooling from 1940 to the late seventies was a "slight interruption" in an 'upward trend"? Right. Too bad there never was an "upward trend" isn't it E? And too bad no attempt is made to explain how the main phase of global warming peaked in 1940, followed by a nearly forty year planetary cooling trend precisely at the time CO2 and other green house gases were being added to the atmosphere in far vaster quantities then had been possible pre WWII. Take away the fevered ideological dimension to AGW, and this would have been a burning question all along (and has been among the growing number of skeptics...all along). The modest warming of the last century is well within known natural limits, and has no known empirical connection to human activity or CO2 proper. That's the bottom line.

The people you are using as sources have been caugtt peddling tainted data over and over again, and hiding their work from outside scrutiny. That's another bottom line. Hanson is a paranoid totalitarian fanatic calling for Nuremberg type trials for scientists who disagree with his interpretation of the evidence. These are the people you are sourcing as legitimate authorities!

Oh, and yet again, you're "upward trend" ended ten years ago, and the planet is, for the time being, in the grip of a significant cooling trend. All known glacial melt is natural, the Arctic is larger and colder at any time since the sixties, the modest warming so far has no relation to extreme weather events, the present sea level rise has been under way for centuries, and its over, all over.

They're not flaks, they're ideologues who have corrupted science and fudged they're data in the service of an ideological cause, and it will take the discipline of Climatology some time (and a reappraisal of the appropriateness of funding so much climate science research with government grant money) to recover.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Moniker
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Moniker »

EAlussion, a heads up. You can whip Coggins/droopy in debate and he'll come back in spouting the same nonsense a month later as if it never even happened.
_Droopy
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Droopy »

Moniker wrote:EAlussion, a heads up. You can whip Coggins/droopy in debate and he'll come back in spouting the same nonsense a month later as if it never even happened.



If not knowing what on earth you're talking about is a virtue, Moniker is the Mother Teresa of this issue.

Tell me Moniker, is the South Arctic melting?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Moniker
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Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Moniker »

Droopy wrote:
Moniker wrote:EAlussion, a heads up. You can whip Coggins/droopy in debate and he'll come back in spouting the same nonsense a month later as if it never even happened.



If not knowing what on earth you're talking about is a virtue, Moniker is the Mother Teresa of this issue.

Tell me Moniker, is the South Arctic melting?


You go first!

Tell me, Coggins, how Jefferson and Hamilton agreed on how our nation should progress and how they were not elitists. :)

~changed to Jefferson to make it fun!~
_Droopy
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Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _Droopy »

Forget the clever parsing and word smithing over at the pro-AGW front site Realclimate. Here's a little social history lession:



http://www.businessandmedia.org/special ... andIce.pdf
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Why do conservatives deny Global Warming?

Post by _EAllusion »

The nice thing about the realclimate link is it contains links to primary sources, like the 1975 National Academy of Sciences report, that make it clear their point is correct.
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