Trump's "Non-Starter"

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:It’s not fair because Trump is still taking the livelihoods of 800,000 Americans hostage because he can’t persuade the legislature to do something he wants. What would be fair is to release his hostages, put the government back to work, and try to negotiate an immigration deal that includes a wall or fencing or barriers.


Haven't the Democrats already proven they are unwilling to negotiate on the wall?

Aren't they, in fact, proving it right now by rejecting his proposal?


No, they haven’t. Remember, at one point Schumer offered 25B for the walk in a deal that Trump turned down.

Never confuse public statements about negotiating positions with actual negotiating positions. Public pronouncements never reflect the deal that can be done.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Look I think you are losing patience with me and that's understandable. I can bow out and just read if that's a better approach.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:No, they haven’t. Remember, at one point Schumer offered 25B for the walk in a deal that Trump turned down.

Never confuse public statements about negotiating positions with actual negotiating positions. Public pronouncements never reflect the deal that can be done.


No, I don't remember the details on that offer. All of this is like reading freaking Chinese to me. I'm doing my best to learn, understand and try to keep up with it.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Jersey Girl, I don’t give a ____ about who else uses the language I use. I describe it as hostage taking because that’s what it looks like. Trump: pass the bill I want or I’ll withhold pay from 800,000 Americans, forcing half to work without pay. Those Americans aren’t part of the dispute. They’re being hurt solely because the President wants something. Just like holding hostages for ransom.

How do you not see this as hostage taking?


Well, like I just stated in my reply to Cam, I see that the guy is making concessions that previously he rejected, the Democrats are now rejecting that so who is unwilling to negotiate?

It looks like the Democrats to me right now.

They want him to end the shut down and negotiate after the fact, when they have already proven that they aren't willing to negotiate even when he gives them part of what they demanded in the first place.

I don't see his proposals as unreasonable.


Well, then his tactical move succeeded with you.

It didn’t with me. We’ll see how it plays out.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Well, then his tactical move succeeded with you.

It didn’t with me. We’ll see how it plays out.


Okay RI.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:Look I think you are losing patience with me and that's understandable. I can bow out and just read if that's a better approach.


I’m sorry, Jersey Girl. I’m at a gaming session and posting between turns on ny phone. That’s making me sound terse and irritated when I’m not.

I’m gonna game now and come back in the morning when I can take more time. Again, sorry for my tone.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Look I think you are losing patience with me and that's understandable. I can bow out and just read if that's a better approach.


I’m sorry, Jersey Girl. I’m at a gaming session and posting between turns on ny phone. That’s making me sound terse and irritated when I’m not.

I’m gonna game now and come back in the morning when I can take more time. Again, sorry for my tone.


No problem. You aren't responsible for educating me. I've had FOX news barking in my ear the entire time.

I'll just read the upcoming exchanges for a while.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _EAllusion »

Republicans are refusing to negotiate anything important for the wall because they correctly view the wall as not important. But Trump is willing to shut down the government over it without negotiating anything of real value and Republicans are willing to walk with Trump off a cliff despite prior votes, so that's why we stand where we do.
_canpakes
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _canpakes »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:If a president can do this anytime to get his way, we look more like a dictatorship than a democracy.

I need to read that 20 times until it sinks in. I'm not prepared to respond to it.

Just editing to emphasize an important point.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Trump's "Non-Starter"

Post by _Kevin Graham »

This is a piece I thought was well written, explaining why folks like Chris Cuomo are doing us all a disservice by pretending this is a "both sides" thing when it isn't. CNN of course, trying to appear balanced instead of just reporting it like it is.

The ‘Both Sides’ Brigade Is Encouraging Trump to Take More Hostages

...The root cause of the shutdown was not a bipartisan failure of “job performance,” but rather, the president’s decision to deliberately inflict suffering on the American people, as a means of coercing a coequal branch of government into doing his bidding.

That might sound like a partisan jab. But it is plain description of political reality.

The Democratic Party’s position in the shutdown fight can be summarized as follows:

During times of divided government, when two coequal branches cannot reach agreement on an issue, it is not legitimate for one branch to use its technical authority to shutter large swathes of the government as a means of forcing action on its priorities. Thus, the government should be immediately reopened while debate over the president’s border wall continues....

Neutral political reporters do not necessarily have an obligation to take a normative stance on the propriety of procedural radicalism. But when one party in a dispute decides to deploy a hardball tactic, such reporters do have an obligation to accurately describe who has introduced procedural radicalism into the fight, what their rationale is for doing so, and whether that rationale is consistent with verifiable facts.

The evidence that Trump is acting in bad faith is so voluminous and varied, it’s hard to know where to begin. No credible immigration experts — including conservative ones who consider the influx of Central American migrants to be a crisis — believe that a border wall is an effective means of deterring migrants from exercising their legal right to seek asylum in the United States. And the Trump administration hasn’t offered any detailed explanation for how that could possibly be the case. What’s more, if the president’s claims were all true, then his refusal to shutter the government to force action on wall funding during his first two years in office would be inexcusable; however one chooses to describe conditions at the U.S. southern border, they have not radically changed over the last two months. If there is a “crisis” now, then there was a crisis last year.

But the most blatant evidence of Trump’s bad faith might be this: The government shutdown is demonstrably weakening border security, and undermining public safety.

Suffice it to say, one can’t credibly claim that a shutdown is justified because America is suffering from a crisis of border security if a shutdown undermines the security of America’s borders.The objective truth about the shutdown is that the president is deploying an immensely destructive hardball tactic for reasons that are nonsensical at best, and maliciously dishonest at worst.

Chris Cuomo is welcome to argue that Democrats should reward Trump’s use of a tactic that inflicts widespread harm on the populace — and which the president himself cannot coherently justify — because the costs of allowing the shutdown to continue outweigh the moral hazard of incentivizing future abuses of power.

But refusing to assign primary responsibility for the shutdown to Donald Trump does not make the CNN anchor objective; it makes him complicit in the president’s misrule.
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