Green New Deal

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_Ceeboo
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Ceeboo »

Themis wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:Hey Themis

The loss of freedom is squarely cemented within the political leftist camp. For you to not see that is either a personal choice you have made or a complete lack of basic wisdom.


You posts help me to understand how Germans did not even notice until well after their freedom was lost to a very conservative movement. It's not hard to see just how autocratic Trump is in his thinking and if you look you can see some very conservative movements around the world that are becoming very autocratic. Loss of democracy is a risk from both extremes. Come back to some sanity Ceeboo. Support someone to replace Trump as the republican nominee. Trumpism really is the greatest threat to US democracy right now, and I highly suspect Putin pulls some of his strings.


Your post reminds me of the countless hysterical comparisons that are being trotted out on a daily basis from the many Americans that have their political glasses so firmly cemented to their eyes that they can no longer see what's happening on the most plain and clear levels.

The greatest threat to US democracy is not Trumpism, the greatest threat to US democracy, by far, is the radical left.

by the way, while I am convinced that you believe Trump is in Putin's pocket, I find the suggestion (intended with clear implications understood) totally ridiculous.
_Themis
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Themis »

Ceeboo wrote:The greatest threat to US democracy is not Trumpism, the greatest threat to US democracy, by far, is the radical left.


While I would agree that the radical left is a threat to democracy, there numbers and influence is fairly low in comparison to the new Trumpism.

by the way, while I am convinced that you believe Trump is in Putin's pocket, I find the suggestion (intended with clear implications understood) totally ridiculous.


The connections are far to many, and the information is coming from many sources on the right as well as. His actions all to often fit into what Putin wants. You have many notable conservative telling us just how bad Trump is. I expect a lot of criticism from the other side whether you are Trump or Hillary, so I like to look at the criticism that comes from people and organizations in their own camps. I have never seen the kind of information and criticism of Trump coming from people and organizations associated with the Republicans compared to past republicans presidents. The only one who may be closer is Nixon. It really shouldn't have been hard to see Trump is the worst choice long before he joined the republican party.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:UBI is something I'm quite supportive of as is a wing within libertarian thought.


What wing is that?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Xenophon
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:UBI is something I'm quite supportive of as is a wing within libertarian thought.


What wing is that?

- Doc
Most notable I think would be Friedman, whether people want to admit or not his promotion of negative income tax is just a different implementation model for UBI. It should also be noted that Gary Johnson also stated his support for UBI during his 2016 presidential campaign.

Most of the libertarians I know think that it would be a cheaper, more efficient and "freer" method of meeting the basic needs of citizens while also mitigating some of the unintended negative impacts that come with other welfare systems.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

That's just classical Liberalism.

Speaking of which, this guy makes the argument that Friedman was just such an economist:

http://www.walterblock.com/publications ... rtarian-2/

Anyway. I'm interested in the "wing" of Libertarianism that thinks UBI isn't socialism, but libertarianism.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:UBI is something I'm quite supportive of as is a wing within libertarian thought.


What wing is that?

- Doc
A faction within the more CATO / Reason oriented crowd as opposed to the paleo crowd. Libertarians who support social safety nets, mostly.

Do a search on UBI on CATO’s website.

(I imagine this is supposed to be some gotcha on anarcho-syndicalism, but that could be cleared up with a simple google search.)
_EAllusion
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:That's just classical Liberalism.
No one is a classical liberal in the 18th century sense and its modern analogs are within the libertarian quadrant. What can be called one can be called the other.

Milton Friedman is the quintessential example of a utilitarian libertarianism to the point that his name is used as short hand for it. That you are unaware of this explains a lot as I am more of a Friedman style libertarian.
_EAllusion
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:That's just classical Liberalism.

Speaking of which, this guy makes the argument that Friedman was just such an economist:

http://www.walterblock.com/publications ... rtarian-2/

Anyway. I'm interested in the "wing" of Libertarianism that thinks UBI isn't socialism, but libertarianism.

- Doc
Walter Block is a paleolibertarian trying to brand police the term to associate it with his wing. That is the Murray Rothbard, Austrian economics, right-wing militia, etc. types. Paleos and regular small-l libertarians disagree on much. I think they’re cranks. Sometimes dangerous cranks and sometimes working on the right things for the wrong reasons.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:What wing is that?

- Doc
A faction within the more CATO / Reason oriented crowd as opposed to the paleo crowd. Libertarians who support social safety nets, mostly.

Do a search on UBI on CATO’s website.

(I imagine this is supposed to be some gotcha on anarcho-syndicalism, but that could be cleared up with a simple google search.)


https://www.cato.org/search#?cludoquery ... rtarianism

There are 18000+ results.

What wing, specifically, within Libertarian ideology, supports UBI? For example, does it have a name outside of sharing some sort of ideology with an economist?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_ajax18
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _ajax18 »

You had a number of decent conservatives to vote for and you went bat ____ crazy for a guy who was an obvious train wreck.


Mitt Romney tried being a decent conservative. It didn't work. He didn't win and neither would any of the other 17 Republican presidential candidates in a general election. Ted Cruz is a decent conservative in my opinion. Even I admit he wouldn't have won.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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