"Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by MeDotOrg »

Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:46 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:42 am


I can’t really decipher your metaphor, so would you please quote the parts of the article that led you to that conclusion?

- Doc
No. Like I said and like I quoted in my response. Asking for a conviction based on one's willingness to commit a crime that the FBI set up and invited others to commit with the agents of the FBI is frightening. We do that in this country, and it is frightening, or dicey. Just like going to a war based on a premise or an assumption is scary, so is incarcerating our citizens based on what a jury may feel the citizen may by willing to do rather than what they did do.
I really have a hard time following your narrative as opposed to the facts. The FBI was not putting a gun to Trump's head, forcing him to hold on to classified documents.

If Donald Trump is NOT prosecuted, who will trust the United States Government to keep secrets?

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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Binger »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:36 pm
Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:46 am


No. Like I said and like I quoted in my response. Asking for a conviction based on one's willingness to commit a crime that the FBI set up and invited others to commit with the agents of the FBI is frightening. We do that in this country, and it is frightening, or dicey. Just like going to a war based on a premise or an assumption is scary, so is incarcerating our citizens based on what a jury may feel the citizen may by willing to do rather than what they did do.
I really have a hard time following your narrative as opposed to the facts. The FBI was not putting a gun to Trump's head, forcing him to hold on to classified documents.

If Donald Trump is NOT prosecuted, who will trust the United States Government to keep secrets?
Of course you are having a hard time following. You are imagining a narrative that is not there.

We were talking about the FBI setting up a crime and then convicting people they recruited to commit the crime. We were not talking about Trump. :lol:

Did I miss something though? Did Res or Panny edit my post again?

(highlight switched to purple. -cp-)
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Res Ipsa »

Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:27 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:19 am


Oh? Please quote the parts of the article that led you to that conclusion.

- Doc
It is not one piece. It is the whole damn thing. And, like Gad says, the process has always been dicey. Seeing it laid out like that to "catch" someone in a crime that they are vulnerable to commit but not actually committing is scary AF. The busted dudes are likely real POS's. No doubt. But damn. Setting up people to commit impossible crimes and then telling the jury to judge them based on a propensity and not an actual act is some scary ass crap.

Again, the whole piece is disturbing. But this should scare the “F” out of people.
If an FBI agent persuades someone to commit a crime, it's not entrapment if that person is already willing.
Asking juries to judge "willingness" is screwed. At that point, why even bother to sit the damned jury, just roll dice or ask someone that you like to make the decision you like. So yeah. Scary. I don't take a criminal trial with that standard seriously nor do I take the FBI that goes out enticing people like that very seriously. And I certainly don't take the media's report of the incident in 2020 seriously.
You’re confusing the elements of the crime with the affirmative defense of entrapment. The government has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the defendants violated the law — not that they were willing to violate the law or had a propensity to violate the law — that they violated the law.

The entrapment defense essentially says “yes, I violated the law, but I shouldn’t be held responsible for violating it because LEOs tricked me into doing something I would not have otherwise done.” The accused has the burden of proof to show that the entrapment defense applies. The jury gets to decide whether the accused’s claim that he wouldn’t have otherwise broken the law is true.

The article is about the entrapment defense — not about what the government has to show that a crime has been committed.
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Res Ipsa »

Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:44 pm
MeDotOrg wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:36 pm

I really have a hard time following your narrative as opposed to the facts. The FBI was not putting a gun to Trump's head, forcing him to hold on to classified documents.

If Donald Trump is NOT prosecuted, who will trust the United States Government to keep secrets?
Of course you are having a hard time following. You are imagining a narrative that is not there.

We were talking about the FBI setting up a crime and then convicting people they recruited to commit the crime. We were not talking about Trump. :lol:

Did I miss something though? Did Res or Panny edit my post again?
If I edited a post of yours, I would say so. In red.
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Binger »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:50 pm
The accused has the burden of proof to show that the entrapment defense applies. The jury gets to decide whether the accused’s claim that he wouldn’t have otherwise broken the law is true.

The article is about the entrapment defense — not about what the government has to show that a crime has been committed.
Hey Res man. I am not a lawyer. I do not disagree with your take on it. And, I can find the facts, the article, the instructions from the judge and the conviction extremely unsettling.

It all comes across as a case where the FBI set up the crime, recruited people that were willing to commit the crime, and then the people were guilty until proven innocent but the standard of guilt is just a propensity to commit a crime that the FBI asked these dumbass bumpkins to commit. And further, my how convenient was it to set up that crime during an elections?

Jesus, effing, Christ.

So yeah. I don't disagree with your view of the law. And whatever. If the FBI is bored and needs to make up crimes then maybe Quantico needs to just be a movie studio going forward.
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Binger »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:52 pm
Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:44 pm


Of course you are having a hard time following. You are imagining a narrative that is not there.

We were talking about the FBI setting up a crime and then convicting people they recruited to commit the crime. We were not talking about Trump. :lol:

Did I miss something though? Did Res or Panny edit my post again?
If I edited a post of yours, I would say so. In red.
My post in MDO's post is edited in red. Very red.

Seen, and changed. -cp-
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Res Ipsa »

Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:57 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:50 pm
The accused has the burden of proof to show that the entrapment defense applies. The jury gets to decide whether the accused’s claim that he wouldn’t have otherwise broken the law is true.

The article is about the entrapment defense — not about what the government has to show that a crime has been committed.
Hey Res man. I am not a lawyer. I do not disagree with your take on it. And, I can find the facts, the article, the instructions from the judge and the conviction extremely unsettling.

It all comes across as a case where the FBI set up the crime, recruited people that were willing to commit the crime, and then the people were guilty until proven innocent but the standard of guilt is just a propensity to commit a crime that the FBI asked these dumbass bumpkins to commit. And further, my how convenient was it to set up that crime during an elections?

Jesus, effing, Christ.

So yeah. I don't disagree with your view of the law. And whatever. If the FBI is bored and needs to make up crimes then maybe Quantico needs to just be a movie studio going forward.
I’m well aware you aren’t a lawyer. Yet you continually spout complete B.S. based not only on your ignorance of the law, but on your failure to spend even the minimal amount of time and effort required to educate yourself to the point that you can intelligently discuss a legal issue.

“I’m not a lawyer” is not an excuse for spouting ignorant BS.
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:57 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:50 pm
The accused has the burden of proof to show that the entrapment defense applies. The jury gets to decide whether the accused’s claim that he wouldn’t have otherwise broken the law is true.

The article is about the entrapment defense — not about what the government has to show that a crime has been committed.
And, I can find the facts, the article, the instructions from the judge and the conviction extremely unsettling.
Please post the facts, the article, and ‘conviction’ that you find unsettling so we can make an assessment, too.

- Doc
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Chap »

It seems worthwhile to post the summary of the DoJ filing:
Summary of Argument

Plaintiff’s motion to appoint a special master, enjoin further review of seized materials, and require the return of seized items fails for multiple, independent reasons. As an initial matter, the former President lacks standing to seek judicial relief or oversight as to Presidential records because those records do not belong to him. The Presidential Records Act makes clear that “[t]he United States” has “complete ownership, possession, and control” of them. 44 U.S.C. § 2202. Furthermore, this Court lacks jurisdiction to adjudicate Plaintiff’s Fourth Amendment challenges to the validity of the search warrant and his arguments for returning or suppressing the materials seized. For those reasons and others, Plaintiff has shown no basis for the Court to grant injunctive relief. Plaintiff is not likely to succeed on the merits; he will suffer no injury absent an injunction—let alone an irreparable injury; and the harms to the government and the public would far outweigh any benefit to Plaintiff.

Even if the Court had jurisdiction to entertain Plaintiff’s claims, appointment of a special master is unnecessary and would significantly harm important governmental interests, including national security interests. Appointment of a special master is disfavored in a case such as this. In any event, the government’s filter team has already completed its work of segregating any seized materials that are potentially subject to attorney-client privilege, and the government’s investigative team has already reviewed all of the remaining materials, including any that are potentially subject to claims of executive privilege. Appointment of a special master to review materials potentially subject to claims of executive privilege would be particularly inappropriate because binding Supreme Court precedent forecloses Plaintiff’s argument that review of these materials by personnel within the Executive Branch raises any such privilege concerns. Furthermore, appointment of a special master would impede the government’s ongoing criminal investigation and—if the special master were tasked with reviewing classified documents—would impede the Intelligence Community from conducting its ongoing review of the national security risk that improper storage of these highly sensitive materials may have caused and from identifying measures to rectify or mitigate any damage that improper storage caused. Lastly, this case does not involve any of the types of circumstances that have warranted appointment of a special master to review materials potentially subject to attorney-client privilege.

There then follows a detailed setting out of the facts of the case (I give only the headings after the initial paragraph - but the headings alone are highly informative):

Factual Background

Mindful that the Court ruling on the present motion is not the same Court that authorized the search warrant from which this civil action results, the government provides below a detailed recitation of the relevant facts, many of which are provided to correct the incomplete and inaccurate narrative set forth in Plaintiff’s filings.

A. NARA, upon Observing that It Was Missing Presidential Records from the Former President’s Administration, Attempted to Obtain the Missing Records Voluntarily from the Former President’s Representatives

B. Observing that the Fifteen Boxes Contained “Highly Classified Records,” NARA Sent a Referral to the Department of Justice

C. The Former President Delayed the FBI’s Access to the Fifteen Boxes

D. The FBI’s Review of the Fifteen Boxes Highlighted the National Security Implications of Their Improper Storage

E. After Obtaining Evidence Indicating that Additional Classified Records Remained at the Premises, DOJ Initially Sought Their Return Through the Issuance of a Grand Jury Subpoena

F. In Response to the Subpoena, Counsel for the Former President Provided a Limited Number of Documents Accompanied by a Certification that All Responsive Documents Were Produced Following a Diligent Search

G. After Further Investigation Indicated that the Response to the Subpoena Was Incomplete, that Obstructive Conduct Occurred in Connection with the Response to the Subpoena, and that Classified Information Remained at the Premises, DOJ Obtained a Court-Authorized Search Warrant

H. During the August 8 Execution of the Search Warrant at the Premises, the Government Seized Thirty-Three Boxes, Containers, or Items of Evidence, Which Contained over a Hundred Classified Records, Including Information Classified at the Highest Levels

I. The Privilege Review Team Has Completed Its Work
Detailed legal argument then follows - but this point is plain: Trump was served with a subpoena enjoining him to return any documents he still held. He then sent a few documents, saying that was all he had, and that there had been a dlligent search to verify that. However, evidence was obtained to the contrary, so a warrant was obtained and the raid was carried out, leading to the discovery of a huge stash of further documents, many highly classified, including some in Trump's desk drawer.

That seems to leave Trump and his lawyers without a leg to stand on. He lied about having sent back all the documents he had, and the number he had not sent back was so huge that there is no possibility that he and his lawyers just did not notice that they still had them.

That sinks him, surely?
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Re: "Riots in the streets" if Trump indicted

Post by Res Ipsa »

Binger wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:59 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:52 pm


If I edited a post of yours, I would say so. In red.
My post in MDO's post is edited in red. Very red.
So? The quote of your post was not “edited in red.” The color of the font was changed from black to red, which I would assume was done by MDO for emphasis. Insinuating that Canpakes or I “edited” your post is flat out dishonest.
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