Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

[_Kevin Graham]

Kevin -

Again, I don't think the arguments based on the viral video hold up. Watch the kid in the longer videos. Watch how the confrontation began and went down. I don't think its so much a difference of opinions as it is the evidence one is relying on to make a judgment.

Well this is where we will just have to disagree. One cannot make an argument that someone didn't misbehave if someone else interprets their behavior as misbehaving. I was the first person on this thread to post the entirety of the incident in three consecutive 5 minute videos.

Do I think the kid's behavior was newsworthy stuff? No. I just thought he was being a little jerk.

Did the full context change my initial perception of what happened? A little bit. What took me by surprise was how much smaller and younger Sandmann appeared to be from every other angle. The initial video that went viral made him look bigger and older. So much so that I wondered if the viral version was doctored. It wasn't.

When I saw the full context I saw a bunch of kids acting like kids. I didn't hear anyone talk about a wall, but I was also aware that there were dozens of exchanges going on in the background that weren't audible in the available footage. Whenever conversations or full sentences were clearly heard, they're weren't a good look for the group of Christian kids.

As far as the Sandmann encounter, I'm sure he had no idea he'd soon be the center of attention. He didn't know which direction Phillips would head when trying to leave, so he wasn't asking for this. You could see him standing in the background laughing and carrying on like a typical kid before Phillips moved towards him. But as Phillips headed in that direction it seems all the other kids were moving to let Phillips' posse pass through, but Sandmann froze in place as Phillips got closer. And then the notorious smirk+staredown began.

Immediately the crowd of kids encircled the much smaller group of Native demonstrators. Putting myself in his shoes at the age of 14, I could see why he'd enjoy the moment as he was quite literally the center of attention.

But to EA's point, these kids were not culturally educated enough to understand the disrespect they were dishing out in terms of racial heritage. I'm sure many of them didn't realize how disrespectful their actions could be perceived, but there were a couple of kids who were arguing with the Indians over their professed status as indigenous. Telling them that being conquered is just part of life they should accept and get over it. I keep imagining someone going to a demonstration of African Americans and saying "slavery happened all throughout history, so just get over it."

[_honorentheos]

But that pales in comparison to the outrage machine put in motion and tries to tie what happened to Trump or the whole history of racism in America.

It doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course racial mockery of Native Americans ties into the history of racism in America. How could it not? Donald Trump's repeated offensive references to Native Americans specifically and social outgroups in general is obviously going to be recalled when teens wearing his colors engage in racial taunting of Native Americans. None of this occurs in a vacuum.

Is it possible you saw a selected video clip of the Tomahawk chop moment and are arguing this is the defining aspect of what happened? Because otherwise, I'm curious where your evidence is for racial mockery that justifies anything more than a few kids appear to warrant being taught why doing the chop as a response to the drumming would be considered offensive. Racial mockery? There's plenty of video and other information available to draw from to demonstrate this was what was going on if that is what was actually happening, EA. Feel free to provide the links.

[_Jersey Girl]

. But as Phillips headed in that direction it seems all the other kids were moving to let Phillips' posse pass through, but Sandmann froze in place as Phillips got closer. And then the notorious smirk+staredown began.

Let Phillip's posse pass through where? Phillips claimed that he wanted to ascend the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, did he not?

Curiously, that's not the direction he was headed for. He and his group had a straight shot up the steps to the memorial and they chose to turn into the group of students where Philips led the group directly to Nick S. until they were face to face.

[_EAllusion]

I am referring to both mock chanting and tomahawk chopping as racial mockery. We've already established that you see it as a minor thing where the very idea of calling it racist is offensive to you. When I've compared it to comparable examples of racial caricatures directed at other groups of people, you've taken umbrage. Cool. America still has a long way to go when it comes to this kind of treatment of Native Americans when compared to some other groups.

Again, your position is both that it's offensive to suggest you are saying the teens did little to nothing wrong, but also that there's so little evidence that the teens did anything wrong that you're gonna need a detailed analysis of hours of video footage to demonstrate anything wrong occurred. This is pretty far afield your argument that I'm calling for national piling-on (false), am asking to hold the teens responsible for bigotry in America (false) or claiming that the teens should be treated as an effigy of Trump (false). You bounce between claims like that and this stance when I try to correct them and point out that no, I'm just saying some of the Covington teens behaved poorly in a way that has some symbolic significance.

[_Kevin Graham]

Kevin -

Just start watching from here when Philips begins to move past the BHI to get in front of the kids. And then revisit what it is you'd use to justify giving your own kid a talking to over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-pFMZa ... .be&t=4344

Seriously. Where is the moment you see it is clear Philips was acting as if he wanted to pass through the group and the kid made the decision to be a prick?

Here is the full video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZn2e9wDBs

Watch the mark at 16:20-16:30 and you can see the group of just a few Native Americans was moving, slowly but surely from left to right. Notice also a bunch of kids off to the right doing Tomahawk Chops 16:30-16:35. All the way up to the 16:45 mark you can see kids moving out of his way as he is making his way from left to right.

At 16:49 the camera angle shifts and now we're looking from the left side of Phillips. He stops moving in any direction and instead is looking around as if trying to find a path out. As the camera scans around you can see he is fully engulfed by the crowd.

At the 17:36 mark Phillips makes his way up the steps and every kid within 10 feet in front of him makes way for him to pass except for you know who. Immediately Sandmann puts on that notorious smirk and begins the 3 minute stare down. Notice how far behind Sandmann's classmates are standing from him. They're a good 2-3 feet away from his left and right, but they're all a good 5-10 feet away from his back. I think this is best explained because the kids saw Phillips was trying to leave in that direction. But of course, Sandmann planted himself right there and the 3 minute staredown ensued.

At the 19:15 mark you can see a woman behind Phillips complaining about the "mob mentality." As the camera scans back toward Sandmann you can see he's trying very hard not to blink. Even with a drum beating inches from his face, his eyes flicker as if reflexively blinking but he never fully blinks which tells me he's trying to do some kind of intimidation thing.

Around the 21:00 mark the smirk seems to fade away and his demeanor changes. Maybe he had a moment of clarity sometime in the last minute. At 21:12 you hear a kid encourage him to continue, "Be Strong."

"Does anyone know what he's doing?" is what you hear at 21:43. I could be wrong but I believe this is the same kid who would soon start arguing with another Indian about whether he's truly indigenous, which begins around 22:15. No longer smirking, Sandmann hears an exchange getting intense right over his left shoulder and signals to another kid to cut it out.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Do I think the kid's behavior was newsworthy stuff? No. I just thought he was being a little jerk.

Did the full context change my initial perception of what happened? A little bit.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

In case anyone wants to be reminded of Looney Tunes' commentary on the whole fiasco. Good thing he changed his position "a little bit."

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=50917



- Doc

[_Kevin Graham]

If my initial perception was that the kids stormed up on the old man's face and screamed "build that wall" then I would have said the context changed my perception A LOT.

But that was never my initial perception. You're dealing in straw men.

[_honorentheos]

I am referring to both mock chanting and tomahawk chopping as racial mockery. We've already established that you see it as a minor thing where the very idea of calling it racist is offensive to you.

I've pointed out that it is a very brief, limited moment in the broad context of what happened, and the appropriate response to it would be to explain to the few kids who did it why it's offensive. Again, it's briefly apparently in what can be seen in the videos and from a very, very few number of boys. Those same boys can be seen not doing it moments later in the video Kevin linked to above. You're making it into something that should cause everyone in vicinity deep shame. I'm saying you are alluding to things as evidence of an attitude that otherwise does not appear evident or are making what did happen appear to be significant when the easiest explanation for what iis apparent in the videos is ignorance on the part of a handful of kids.

Here's the point Kevin calls out so you can see what it is you are referring to:
https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=992

When I've compared it to comparable examples of racial caricatures directed at other groups of people, you've taken umbrage. Cool. America still has a long way to go when it comes to this kind of treatment of Native Americans when compared to some other groups.

I take umbrage with your attempt to make it into the defining aspect of that incident.

Again, your position is both that it's offensive to suggest you are saying the teens did little to nothing wrong, but also that there's so little evidence that the teens did anything wrong that you're gonna need a detailed analysis of hours of video footage to demonstrate anything wrong occurred.

Or, you know, you could just provide a clear example of what it is that you speaking about rather than using the old trick (one Fox News excels at by the way) of relying on people's imaginations to define what happened rather by alluding to it being significant when the actual evidence wouldn't support those claims so you avoid using the evidence.

This is pretty far afield your argument that I'm calling for national piling-on (false), am asking to hold the teens responsible for bigotry in America (false) or claiming that the teens should be treated as an effigy of Trump (false). You bounce between claims like that and this stance when I try to correct them and point out that no, I'm just saying some of the Covington teens behaved poorly in a way that has some symbolic significance.

You clearly made the argument in the other thread that it should be seen in the context of Trump's influence on America. I'm arguing that is such an eggregious stretching the evidence that it only makes sense if one realizes the actual incident is irrelevant. You aren't just saying some teens behaved poorly. You're saying that what they did is an outgrowth of something deeper and more insidious. Otherwise, why argue that the kid in the center of the debate should feel shame for what he did?

[_honorentheos]

Kevin -

Just start watching from here when Philips begins to move past the BHI to get in front of the kids. And then revisit what it is you'd use to justify giving your own kid a talking to over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-pFMZa ... .be&t=4344

Seriously. Where is the moment you see it is clear Philips was acting as if he wanted to pass through the group and the kid made the decision to be a prick?

Here is the full video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZn2e9wDBs

Watch the mark at 16:20-16:30 and you can see the group of just a few Native Americans was moving, slowly but surely from left to right. Notice also a bunch of kids off to the right doing Tomahawk Chops 16:30-16:35. All the way up to the 16:45 mark you can see kids moving out of his way as he is making his way from left to right.

At 16:49 the camera angle shifts and now we're looking from the left side of Phillips. He stops moving in any direction and instead is looking around as if trying to find a path out. As the camera scans around you can see he is fully engulfed by the crowd.

At the 17:36 mark Phillips makes his way up the steps and every kid within 10 feet in front of him makes way for him to pass except for you know who. Immediately Sandmann puts on that notorious smirk and begins the 3 minute stare down. Notice how far behind Sandmann's classmates are standing from him. They're a good 2-3 feet away from his left and right, but they're all a good 5-10 feet away from his back. I think this is best explained because the kids saw Phillips was trying to leave in that direction. But of course, Sandmann planted himself right there and the 3 minute staredown ensued.

At the 19:15 mark you can see a woman behind Phillips complaining about the "mob mentality." As the camera scans back toward Sandmann you can see he's trying very hard not to blink. Even with a drum beating inches from his face, his eyes flicker as if reflexively blinking but he never fully blinks which tells me he's trying to do some kind of intimidation thing.

Around the 21:00 mark the smirk seems to fade away and his demeanor changes. Maybe he had a moment of clarity sometime in the last minute. At 21:12 you hear a kid encourage him to continue, "Be Strong."

"Does anyone know what he's doing?" is what you hear at 21:43. I could be wrong but I believe this is the same kid who would soon start arguing with another Indian about whether he's truly indigenous, which begins around 22:15. No longer smirking, Sandmann hears an exchange getting intense right over his left shoulder and signals to another kid to cut it out.

Let's go to just moments before the face off, Kevin. Here's the stamped link:
https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1021

You can watch Philips walk to his right up to other kids and drum. One of them is facing away, and it seems like Philips was deliberately getting his attention before turning back. They are doing what the kids are doing overall - kinda bopping along and behaving like young high school aged kids. You also get to see the tomahawk chop from that angle and the few kids doing it, and for about how long they did it. In that time, Philips appears to be basically moving up to different kids to almost converse with them with the drum but isn't clearly trying to move past them, turns back in the arcing movement he is making, and then as he moves up in front of the kid in the viral video it starts to turn into a bit of a stare down. But it isn't the case that the context shows the kid should have moved out of Philips' way because he was trying to go past him. Philips was moving up to kids long before that, and this happens to be the instance where the kid and he end up in a stare down. It's bananas to argue that the kid was making a lone decision to not let Philips pass out of disrespect to an older gentleman trying to just walk on by. Hell, there's another guy with a drum to Philips' right also drumming and not trying move up the stairs when it's clear he could do so if he wanted. Frankly, I don't take issue with having that kind of response to someone who I would have interpreted as being confrontation with my friends in all honesty. At that age, I'd still say it's likely I'd have had a response in the realm of not backing down. It's just not right to argue he did something wrong. And certainly not right to ignore the fact he and the others are kids being engaged by adults.

[_Jersey Girl]

America still has a long way to go when it comes to this kind of treatment of Native Americans when compared to some other groups.

Like it's minor children?