Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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honorentheos
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

Xenophon wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2024 9:55 am

I know this is the classic problem but I'd be curious if anyone has some battle tested strategies for getting and keeping the commitment of players, especially for the first session which seems the most challenging.
Hey Xeno,

I've thought about this a bit more and my best answer is to cast a wide net in finding players. My work game started as an email to a group of over 100 people. A few folks got excited about it and started talking it up. Then we had a few preparation meetings and, as mentioned, I ran a very quick run through tutorial game using pre gens. The players then got excited about building their characters. This excitement led to the build up for the game. I think the first session being fun made a huge difference because after that I'd heard a few times folks showed up despite being tired because of FOMO.

I don't think I'm a wizbang genius DM. I'm ok. I think the table makes as much or more of a difference in how much fun folks have because the game needs people willing to play make believe with other adults who know them.

Casting a wide net also means you can handle cancelations a bit easier.

Also? On the other side of that: Play with one player if you have one player. It's hella fun. Let them tell the others how much fun they had. As a DM it's easier to DM for a couple folks than it is a big group. Combat is more fun as everything happening matters to the player or players compared to combat with bigger groups. Commit to the bit and have fun. The seed will sprout and begin to grow from there.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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Bret Ripley wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2024 9:30 pm
Image
Wow. I didn't realize you would go for stark accuracy.

It's pretty good, though.
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Xenophon
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by Xenophon »

honorentheos wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2024 12:54 am
Hey Xeno,

I've thought about this a bit more and my best answer is to cast a wide net in finding players. My work game started as an email to a group of over 100 people. A few folks got excited about it and started talking it up. Then we had a few preparation meetings and, as mentioned, I ran a very quick run through tutorial game using pre gens. The players then got excited about building their characters. This excitement led to the build up for the game. I think the first session being fun made a huge difference because after that I'd heard a few times folks showed up despite being tired because of FOMO.

I don't think I'm a wizbang genius DM. I'm ok. I think the table makes as much or more of a difference in how much fun folks have because the game needs people willing to play make believe with other adults who know them.

Casting a wide net also means you can handle cancelations a bit easier.

Also? On the other side of that: Play with one player if you have one player. It's hella fun. Let them tell the others how much fun they had. As a DM it's easier to DM for a couple folks than it is a big group. Combat is more fun as everything happening matters to the player or players compared to combat with bigger groups. Commit to the bit and have fun. The seed will sprout and begin to grow from there.
I appreciate your thoughtful responses, honor. Gives me some things to chew on.

The wide net is a good point and likely an area I'm not good enough at. I had some fairly unfortunate experiences as a player when engaging unknown folks in the past (it doesn't take many local shop/Facebook tables where rape is not only allowed but practically encouraged to get a bad taste in your mouth, as just one example) and that likely left me too cautious. I had a group of 6 that I played with for roughly a decade that had to end for an array of reasons and likely I'm subconsciously looking to recreate that dynamic when I should instead be looking for something different. You don't get to catch lighting in a bottle like that very often.

As to playing with 1, I actually suggested it but they weren't comfortable with that dynamic so I let it be. My current fix is coming from walking my SO and her sister through a BG3 playthrough. My sincere hope is that given the blast SO had at our one-shot birthday blowout and is now having with BG3 I've got the angle for setting up a more reoccurring play pattern.

Edit: I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that given your write-ups I think you are underselling your DMing skills. I get your point that even the best DM can only have fun if the table is vibing and all are engaged and contributing but it is painfully obvious the love and care you put into your efforts.
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honorentheos
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

Xenophon wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:01 pm
I appreciate your thoughtful responses, honor. Gives me some things to chew on.

The wide net is a good point and likely an area I'm not good enough at. I had some fairly unfortunate experiences as a player when engaging unknown folks in the past (it doesn't take many local shop/Facebook tables where rape is not only allowed but practically encouraged to get a bad taste in your mouth, as just one example) and that likely left me too cautious. I had a group of 6 that I played with for roughly a decade that had to end for an array of reasons and likely I'm subconsciously looking to recreate that dynamic when I should instead be looking for something different. You don't get to catch lighting in a bottle like that very often.

As to playing with 1, I actually suggested it but they weren't comfortable with that dynamic so I let it be. My current fix is coming from walking my SO and her sister through a BG3 playthrough. My sincere hope is that given the blast SO had at our one-shot birthday blowout and is now having with BG3 I've got the angle for setting up a more reoccurring play pattern.

Edit: I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that given your write-ups I think you are underselling your DMing skills. I get your point that even the best DM can only have fun if the table is vibing and all are engaged and contributing but it is painfully obvious the love and care you put into your efforts.
Hi Xeno -

You bring up many good points when it comes to the challenges of finding a great table dynamic. Like you, I find myself hoping recreate the magic of our group from when I was growing up. I still haven't found that exact thing yet, though our work group is a good vibe and probably better if I'm being honest since everyone involved are adults. My experience being a player over the last four years has been through joining groups where I didn't know anyone first and the experience is varied. Players who aren't inherently friends first are a little less patient with the DM and there are mismatches between expectations all the time. I haven't had the horrible experience you mentioned since coming back to TTRPGs in 2020 but I know what you mean. I GM'd a game of Twilight 2000 back in the old gaming days where someone wanted to resort to sexual violence and it blew up the table and a friendship. Game ended immediately and I never played with that group again including the friend who invited me to run it. So, I'm sorry you've experienced it not only at the table but where the table encouraged it, too. You find out who people are when they can be whatever they want, I guess.

Today there is a stronger culture for establishing "lines and veils" as well as hard social safety boundaries that I hope reduces that. Session zeros are a valuable tool, in my opinion, and help with that. Anyway you never know who you know that plays. I drop casual mentions of gaming all the time now, like something we had for dinner at the last work session. Or that I have a session that week I need to plan around. I was at lunch with a group of professionals from a number of backgrounds and D&D came up. Turned out a civil engineer at the table DM'd for a group and enough of the people at the table were curious enough about it that I think I could have got a one shot scheduled with them. I was also at a large out of state company event over the winter and found by just waving my nerd flag by saying I DM'd and played that folks would start talking about their games pretty freely. I made a joke during a training session where the presenter asked what intelligence was? to which I said, "A dump stat" which turned out to be how you get D&D folks to reveal themselves. You never know. If you put it out there I think you might find people.
Edit: I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that given your write-ups I think you are underselling your DMing skills. I get your point that even the best DM can only have fun if the table is vibing and all are engaged and contributing but it is painfully obvious the love and care you put into your efforts.
I appreciate that. But I do see myself as an ok DM. I learn all the time and often have to run myself through AARs after sessions to figure out what I can do in order to learn from something I thought might have gone better that didn't land as well as I hoped. Or identify how to recreate something that did go well more consistently. I'm a student of the game.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

Molok wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2024 2:04 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:35 am

Hi Molok,

I've been pretty Call of Cthulu curious for a long time but have yet to play let alone run it. I've checked out a few actual plays and loved what I've heard. How many folks including the person running it would you say are needed to run a reasonably good session?
Hey Honorentheos!

My usual group is 5 people, but there is no minimum number required for a solid session. Some of the most fun sessions I have had in the game were with me and one or two other players. There are even a few campaigns that are designed to be played alone, no GM necessary. "alone against the dark" is an example of that if you were curious to try CoC but didn't have a group for it.
Hey Molok -

So I've caught the Call of Cthulu bug. I listened to a few actual plays I enjoyed that gave me a sense of how game play works. Then I bought the starter set with the solo play adventure you mentioned along with the Investigators Handbook, Keepers Handbook, Mallus Monstrorum, and the Keeper's Screen. I'm picking up the Arkam campaign setting materials next after I've had a chance to digest the rules more. I've found someone who plays and working towards joining a game.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

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honorentheos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:04 pm


So I've caught the Call of Cthulu bug. I listened to a few actual plays I enjoyed that gave me a sense of how game play works. Then I bought the starter set with the solo play adventure you mentioned along with the Investigators Handbook, Keepers Handbook, Mallus Monstrorum, and the Keeper's Screen. I'm picking up the Arkam campaign setting materials next after I've had a chance to digest the rules more. I've found someone who plays and working towards joining a game.
Incredible! Best of luck to you and running your adventure! The rules can be a bit weird on certain things (I still don't know how to run a chase the way the handbook tells you to) but if you're an experienced DM it won't be anything you can't improv through. If you're interested in listening to a podcast, I'd recommend "Time for Chaos" It's a wonderful show doing a playthrough of Masks of Nyarlathotep. The players are professional voice actors, and their characters are fantastic. Please update the board after you start running the game, I'd love to hear your story.

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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

TL;DR I need ideas for running a three to four part virtue test culminating in the manifestation of an angel (Deva) whose reaction to the party will be based on how they perform.

As stated above, my work game party is likely heading to a forgotten temple to seek the help of a Deva, the lowest tier angel in D&D though a tough creature if they get on her bad side by embracing vice and evil. The set up involves their going through three to four scenes on the way there that are actually tests of their virtue. Geographically they will be traveling along a river towards the valley of the temple and I envision the trials begining as they enter the valley.

I have thoughts currently composed around each test being a test of a particular virtue such as justice, temperance, mercy, and courage. But would love to get any ideas anyone has. My first thought was to use the four cardinal virtues but making wisdom and temperance different is not as easy for game play as a trial of mercy. My rough ideas are still just that, rough.

Any ideas are very welcome!
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by Physics Guy »

There is a sort of virtue test in Jack Vance’s novel Cugel’s Saga in which a stranger explicitly demands that the party demonstrate their virtue. All but one make increasingly elaborate professions, culminating in the claim, “I once swam across a lake of fire to inform an old woman that the calamity which she dreaded was unlikely to occur.” The last party member just says that the whole test is stupid and in reality they are all wicked, including the tester for imposing this test. This response passes the test, though (this being a Dying Earth story) it’s unclear whether the tester is just intimidated into letting the party pass.

The incident could perhaps be adapted by adding some ringer NPCs to start making hard-to-top virtue claims, tempting the party to join in the hypocrisy. It might be nice to make subvert the virtue test trope a bit in this way.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

Hi PG,

I like the idea, especially including NPCs to foster competition as a motivator. I'll have to mull over it more.

My own thoughts so far include the following scenes as tests.

First is an encounter with a young green dragon who is currently possessed by a magical lawful good sentient longsword.* The longsword being lodged there by a deceased paladin who died successfully stopping the dragon whose evil nature and soul is repressed by the sword's. I know a few of my players will want the magic sword so there will be temptation to try and take it out of the dragon. If they do, the dragon's evil true self takes over and attacks them before fleeing. This is intended to test both wisdom and temperance.

Second, I'm envisioning an encounter with a traveling shopkeeper whose wagon is stuck in the mud. Helping him will result in his offering them fair pay of 1 silver piece each for their labor. The wagon will be obviously loaded with wealth and tempting items. This is intended to test temperance and justice.

Finally, I envision the party seeing the way to the temple unobstructed before them when they become aware of a band of goblinoids who have captured the surviving members of the rival group who had first tried to come this way. The choice being to free them at some risk or leave them to their fate. The rivals include two individuals who have history with two PCs to the point they might not want to save them. Courage and justice being the intended tests.

I'm also considering an earlier encounter before they set out which would involve the angel in disguise. The disguise would be as a particular unsavory senator from the city who would claim to be aware they party now has a soul coin in their possession he wishes to purchase for a nice price and a few magic items thrown in to sweeten the deal.

Still thinking over ideas but that's what I've come up with so far. I would most likely swap out a scene with a different one rather than add a scene to maintain game pace.

* ETA: I am borrowing this concept from an existing adventure module that includes the green dragon/sentient sword as part of the scenario.
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Re: Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

Post by honorentheos »

honorentheos wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2024 12:54 am
Hey Xeno,

I've thought about this a bit more and my best answer is to cast a wide net in finding players. My work game started as an email to a group of over 100 people. A few folks got excited about it and started talking it up. Then we had a few preparation meetings and, as mentioned, I ran a very quick run through tutorial game using pre gens. The players then got excited about building their characters. This excitement led to the build up for the game. I think the first session being fun made a huge difference because after that I'd heard a few times folks showed up despite being tired because of FOMO.
Hi Xeno-

I thought I'd come back to this with an update of my own. I have had a few folks express curiosity about D&D at work who have heard about our game and, with BG3 also giving folks a bit of the TTRPG bug, I decided to send out an email and ask if there were folks who might be interested in playing a beginner friendly one-shot? I have six people now, not in my current group, who want to play after one day. So I am going to make another pitch for casting a wide net. You never know.

It's been about two years since the work campaign got underway. Of our original group, we lost one player, plus two other folks who joined later but then quit at different times. We also had a person move away as mentioned recently. We've also gained three that have become regular, engaged players. So we've stayed around six-seven active players since January of this year. I also think the three folks who quit would have stayed had the group been smaller or they otherwise felt consistently engaged in the larger group. Because of that I've learned a few things. I am now always prepared to throw a gun into the room, figuratively speaking, as soon as the party starts stalling out. I pre-plan an encounter that can go off whenever needed. Also, I've found it important to insert backstory moments for everyone in a session, even if only a touch. And if someone seems to need it, I'll try to pivot to a backstory moment.

For example, the College of Spirits bard player came to the last session saying outright she'd had a stressful day of work. This is often a sign someone decided they would come but had considered skipping to go home. And I want to be sure they feel that was worth it. So when she got fed up with some party shenanigans, I took the opportunity for her dead orc foster father to walk with her and talk. She was very engaged in that roleplay, at the end of which I had her roll two d20, narrating it as the two of them walking to the Stoa in the dark as he shared flashes of things to come that relate to his lost half-orc son that they now know is with the Atakar orc tribe. Then I told her that the two results were portents, and she could substitute each one time in the future for any d20 roll - hers, an ally's, or enemy, it didn't matter. Then she got to have a bit of narrative fun at the Stoa, while I bounced back around with the rest of the group. My impression was it made it feel worth coming and fun, with the portents adding a bit of excitement for the future.

One other player who has found a +1 vorpal great sword finally had a crit with it, beheading a drider at the top of the 2nd round of combat. Cool, cool. He was hyped and that's how that part of the game goes. I'm glad for him even though the drider had 100 hp left when it did. It worked for the story, too. Then after he got in the face of the night steward of the Stoa when they got back, he was held up for questioning. He was then told he couldn't enter because something was off about him and the rest of the party wouldn't vouch for him because of things he had done earlier that session. So he convinced the barbarian to go with him to the brothel-turned-pawn shop ran by the jackelwares he had promised he would protect from Lady Meissa as couch to crash on. Only instead to find the place empty except for the head of one of the jackelwares left on the desk with a note in its mouth stating, "Their betrayal is know, their debt is paid". Hmmm, I guess that's what happens when someone makes a promise and then puts it off a couple of days, leaving a powerful entity time to do some investigating.

So, if I were distill some more lessons learned down, when it comes to my engagement as DM when interacting with the players and in the game, it's most important I convey as a DM I'm on the player's side...but I am also running the world as a world with consequences. I think that is the sweet spot where there are real challenges, but the challenges feel like they aren't coming directly from me but through me via their actions and choices if that makes sense?

Anyway, hope things are going well and you are getting closer to being able to get a game going.
Last edited by honorentheos on Tue Aug 13, 2024 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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