Impeachment hearings

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_Some Schmo
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _Some Schmo »

MeDotOrg wrote:I think we really won't know the impact of the hearing until people have had a chance to digest everything.

I doubt today's hearing did much to move opinion, but I mostly think that because I suspect Trump's supporters and people who lean his way will avoid information that disputes their cherished beliefs.

Trumpism is a religion (albeit a grossly idiotic one). I enjoy watching career diplomats telling us what an asshole he is, but I don't see it really changing anything. Trump supporters are assholes and morons, and can't be moved. Even if we are inundated by witness after witness of unimpeachable character, it won't matter. Trump supporters don't gave a damn about character.
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_moksha
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _moksha »

Do they serve Chicken Kiev in restaurants in Kyiv, or do they just call it kypka?

Speaking of Ambassador Sondlund, you would think that loud calls with Trump would spoil lunch.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Guys on the thread. I went ahead and modified the thread title because it looks like the hearings are being commented on now. I thought sure someone would start a new thread.

I still have not listened to today's hearing. So disappointed but busy today. Carry on!

:-)
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Perfume on my Mind wrote:
MeDotOrg wrote:I think we really won't know the impact of the hearing until people have had a chance to digest everything.

I doubt today's hearing did much to move opinion, but I mostly think that because I suspect Trump's supporters and people who lean his way will avoid information that disputes their cherished beliefs.

Trumpism is a religion (albeit a grossly idiotic one). I enjoy watching career diplomats telling us what an asshole he is, but I don't see it really changing anything. Trump supporters are assholes and morons, and can't be moved. Even if we are inundated by witness after witness of unimpeachable character, it won't matter. Trump supporters don't gave a damn about character.

Look, we're beyond the 'smoking gun' stage. The Republicans are basically down to saying that they've seen smoking guns that are worse, or that everyone leaves smoking guns lying around.

At this point counting on the integrity of Republicans is like Blanche DuBois relying on the kindness of strangers. It's a bit quixotic, but I haven't given up all hope. I still think there may be a few that cross the line. The one thing that needs to move is public opinion. Right now I don't see anything that will move the needle away from impeachment, but public opinion will have to get a few points north of 50% before you see the first GOP members start to equivocate.

The reason Nixon wasn't impeached was that he knew he didn't have the votes in the Senate, so he resigned. The reason he knew he didn't have the votes was that a group of Republicans (led by Barry Goldwater) went to the White House and told the President that they would vote against him in an impeachment trial. I don't see anyone in the GOP with Barry's cojones. But we are at the end of Day One. Not everyone out there is a news junkie like us here. It takes a while for the information get in.

In '74 there was the Fairness Doctrine and no cable news, and that is my biggest concern: How many facts will permeate the Fox News membrane? That's one of my biggest fears.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDotOrg wrote:I still think there may be a few that cross the line.


But MeDot (or anyone else reading here) where's the line between equivocation and the point at which you're unwilling to let yourself embarrass yourself any further?

I mean there has to be a point where you realize damn, I'm twisting myself into a pretzel and coming off like a blithering idiot for this guy.

Doesn't there? Doesn't there have to be a place where a guy says "What the hell am I doing to myself?"
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_honorentheos
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _honorentheos »

MeDotOrg wrote:How many Earl Landgrebes are left in the GOP? Congressman Earl Landgrebe was an ardent Nixon supporter, famous for a quote he made during the Watergate hearings: Don't confuse me with the facts. Today I saw several Earls in the Peanut Gallery. I think we really won't know the impact of the hearing until people have had a chance to digest everything.

Moving past Castor's questions and on to the actual representatives, the Republicans did a reasonable job keeping their questions and points focused. Those included,

1) It's a fact that Trump provided lethal military aid to the Ukraine, which is something Obama didn't do.

2) Questions regarding Trump's motives for what was stated in the Ukraine call summary "transcript" are speculative, not facts.

3) The Democrats are putting on a show rather than dealing with facts, evidenced by the unwillingness to let Congress question the whistleblower behind closed doors.

If one is skeptical of the argument the President committed an impeachable offense, I don't think today's testimony moved that person's opinion. It provided reasons to wonder what more will come out of the revelation Sondland may know more than has been provided to Congress to date. But it also showed the Republicans can be effective in dictating the narrative that sticks as well as disrupting Democrat attempts to keep the message simple. If the Democrats want to ensure their arguments don't get lost in the drama of constant appeals for the whistleblower to appear before Congress then they need to narrow their activities during questioning to less speculative rambling than we saw in some cases today. There were good rounds for the Democrats where they made very good points such as:

1) Having an unofficial channel of diplomacy ala Rudy Giuliani undermined the official channel and longstanding goals of the United States in the Ukraine.

2) Seeking to use the powers of government to pursue individual political advantage is the kind of corruption the Ukrainians were trying to throw off. Having a divided US diplomatic effort that included those types of behaviors sent a damaging message.

3) Russia is very alert to signs US support for Ukraine might be waning, and actions like delaying aid give signals the Russians will capitalize on.

There was a great but buried explanation of the history of corruption in the Ukraine and what US aims were in that regard going back to Obama's first term that, by itself, should be the subject of news articles but isn't being brought up in the reporting I've seen.

I found it interesting that Taylor essentially said he viewed the withholding of military aid as the line that was crossed for him, but conditioning a meeting with Trump was less concerning. That confirmed to me that is one aspect of this particular case for impeachment that has the potential for real bi-partisan support. It also explains why the Republicans made the "Trump provided bullets, not blankets" tag one of their key points. Sondland's testimony could be the lynch pin that decides which of those two narratives becomes the one the broader and politically necessary public retains after it's all said and done. And that will include determining how many modern Earl Landgrebe's we end up with when it comes time to vote on articles of impeachment.
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_Smokey
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _Smokey »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Smokey wrote:Boomer, there was no “impeachment hearing” today. Why? Because an “impeachment inquiry” is not a real thing. The only thing that matters for impeachment is the introduction of articles of impeachment. That hasn’t happened and probably won’t.



Well bless your heart. You must have slept through government class. Nancy Pelosi can call the investigation and hearings anything she wants to. Like "Rhonda" or "Milkshake." It's an inquiry. It concerns impeachment. It's an impeachment inquiry. It's a thing now.


LOL. OK, Boomer.

Sit by your television, play Candy Crush on your tablet, get your daily dopamine hit from the 12 Facebook likes on a picture hiding your worn, round face, and watch the impeachment milkshake.

I can’t properly articulate how much I look forward to the next four years.

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Pop quiz, Smokey. I’ll make this one easy. True or false: the investigative phase of the impeachment process was never referred to as an “impeachment inquiry” before the election of Donald Trump.
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_subgenius
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _subgenius »

honorentheos wrote:...I found it interesting that Taylor essentially said ...

said that he only heard something from someone who said they heard something from someone else?

that is interesting...mhm hm

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_MissTish
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Re: Impeachment hearings broadcast question

Post by _MissTish »

AP source: 2nd US official heard Trump call with Sondland

https://apnews.com/6d318542e50b45dc9e1d4d829ad36c96
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