Uh, Alec Baldwin just shot and killed someone

[Moksha]

SANTA FE, N.M., Oct 22 (Reuters) - Alec Baldwin was handed what was described as a safe "cold gun" on the set of his movie "Rust", but the prop gun contained live rounds when it was fired, according to details of the police investigation into the fatal shooting released on Friday.

The shot hit cinematographer Halyna Hutchins in the chest, and director Joel Souza who was behind her, in the shoulder, according to a county sheriff's affidavit filed in Santa Fe magistrates court.

Hutchins died of her wounds and Souza was injured but has since been released from a local hospital.

The assistant director who handed Baldwin the prop gun did not know it contained live rounds, the affidavit by Santa Fe Sheriff's Department Detective Joel Cano said.

[Moksha]

Why would he have thought the prop gun wasn't loaded?

Excellent question for which AtlanticMike and Cultellus demand an answer.

[Cultellus]

Why would he have thought the prop gun wasn't loaded?

Excellent question for which AtlanticMike and Cultellus demand an answer.

Do you have a point?

It seems like you don’t.

[Cultellus]

It depends. My understanding is that if the scene was being rehearsed, the gun should not have been loaded with anything. If they were filming, It doesn’t sounds like the Brandon Lee scenario, in which the gun was fired at another actor in the scene. The woman who was killed was the cinematographer. If Baldwin asked why someone had handed him a hot gun, that’s evidence that whatever was in the gun, it wasn’t what expected it to be. That’sa classic cause of accidents — someone misjudging some fact crucial to the outcome.

It’s very likely that someone was negligent. We just don’t know enough yet to tell who it was.

A race car driver is not expected to inspect the conditions of his brake lines before driving, accelerating, and braking.

Is your point that an actor, similarly, is not expected to inspect the magazines and chambers before pulling the trigger on a gun that is pointed at a person?

I am sure Alec agrees with you, if that is your point.

I disagree completely. I own guns and shoot guns. The assumption that anyone, including an actor, is not responsible for knowing if a real ass gun has real ass bullets before shooting real ass people, is an absurdity I hope to never fathom.

The issue about negligence and accident being opposite is a straw-man point. They are not opposite. Red and blue are not opposites. Sometimes they are mixed together to make violet. They are just different. Who said they were “opposite”?

Accidents happen. When a finger is put on the trigger of a loaded gun, and squeezed, and the gun goes bang, that bang (discharge) is not an accident. It is as predictable as gravity.

There was no accidental discharge in this case. That does not mean there was not negligence or that there was. We do not have evidence of an accident, including the report that, in the aftermath of an actual killing (intent unknown but likely unintentional, we all agree, I think), Alec said something about a “hot gun.” All we know is that Alec pointed a loaded gun at someone, pulled the trigger, and killed the person. There was no mechanical failure, the gun worked as designed.

This is some seriously screwed up stuff, by the way. I mean, the jokes are definitely coming and fingerpointing and investigations are coming, but it is still some screwed up stuff.

[Atlanticmike]

It depends. My understanding is that if the scene was being rehearsed, the gun should not have been loaded with anything. If they were filming, It doesn’t sounds like the Brandon Lee scenario, in which the gun was fired at another actor in the scene. The woman who was killed was the cinematographer. If Baldwin asked why someone had handed him a hot gun, that’s evidence that whatever was in the gun, it wasn’t what expected it to be. That’sa classic cause of accidents — someone misjudging some fact crucial to the outcome.

It’s very likely that someone was negligent. We just don’t know enough yet to tell who it was.

You're a lawyer correct? Could you think of a better way to actually murder someone then to load a gun with a live round, then shoot someone in front of probably dozens of people on a movie set and then use your acting skills to pretend it was an accident? There's probably a ton of people he could blame the live round on.

I believe it was an accident.. But I don't care if it was a real gun or prop gun, if the rounds in the gun had gunpowder in them, it was his responsibility to make sure they were blanks. And if blanks, he still should aimed the gun just to the side of any human he was aiming at. Blanks are dangerous.

[Morley]

A race car driver is not expected to inspect the conditions of his brake lines before driving, accelerating, and braking.

Is your point that an actor, similarly, is not expected to inspect the magazines and chambers before pulling the trigger on a gun that is pointed at a person?

I am sure Alec agrees with you, if that is your point.

I disagree completely. I own guns and shoot guns. The assumption that anyone, including an actor, is not responsible for knowing if a real ass gun has real ass bullets before shooting real ass people, is an absurdity I hope to never fathom.

Cultellus, you were probably raised in and around the same rules of gun etiquette that I was. One of the rules we were taught was that anywhere the barrel pointed (even when the rifle was empty with the bolt open) was considered something you were saying that you intended to kill. Not shoot. Kill. I have never been slapped harder than when I was a child and I swept the barrel of an empty weapon across a room full of people as I was putting the gun down.

Most accidental shootings, and most accidental discharges, are because the various rules of gun etiquette were somehow violated.

My initial reaction to this shooting was the same as yours. But I was wrong. Movies sets don’t operate in that culture. Nor does big game hunting where one hires a guide. The rifles or handguns are loaded and cleaned and cared for by someone else. Barrels are pointed at thing that the handler has no intent to kill. A surprising amount of shooting doesn’t operate under the umbrella of good gun etiquette.

When Dick Cheney shot Harry Whittington, it was an accidental shooting, though we assume that Cheney was well versed in all the rules of gun etiquette. By all appearances, this too, was an accidental shooting, at least on the part of Mr Baldwin.

[Xenophon]

The legal angle is interesting Res and I appreciate you weighing in on that. I also think Morley is spot on with in regards to gun safety culture. I too would have been beat senseless for even pointing a firearm at someone, but that is a cultural experience that not nearly enough folks have.

From the workplace safety world we've just about all together stopped using the word "accident" and we've replaced it with incident. Lots of experience taught us that when we used the word accident many people hear "nothing could have stopped this" or "this kinds of things happen". I can count 1 major incident in my years of work that was truly a freak accident, the rest all had at least 1 and likely many more major breakdowns in the process along the way. However, just because a process breaks down doesn't inherently mean that the outcome was intended or there are parties to hold to account by any extreme actions. There needs to be a thorough investigation where the chain is run all the way to the end.

I don't see anyone here suggesting that Alec or the prop handlers did nothing wrong, just thought a language shift might better frame the conversation.

[Moksha]

What a dumb thread.

Cultellus could always point out that guns are accidents waiting to happen.

[Gadianton]

Barrels are pointed at thing that the handler has no intent to kill. A surprising amount of shooting doesn’t operate under the umbrella of good gun etiquette.

I'm conflicted on this one. It's a tragic scenario, and "accident" covers the whole thing just fine. Whatever the procedures are for that scenario, there was a breakdown. I can't help but think it's a metaphor for the many more shooting victims in this country, and the cultural and procedural gaps that include violent movies that glamorize gun violence. I watch these movies like everyone else. I wouldn't say I have a special attraction to gun movies, but because in general they are more popular, there tend to be better made than alternatives.

Perhaps we should go back to only point guns if you intend to kill, and skip making the movies. Even though I'm sure he's in the clear, I'd be surprised if Alec's perspective on guns isn't affected by this.

[Morley]

I'm conflicted on this one. It's a tragic scenario, and "accident" covers the whole thing just fine. Whatever the procedures are for that scenario, there was a breakdown. I can't help but think it's a metaphor for the many more shooting victims in this country, and the cultural and procedural gaps that include violent movies that glamorize gun violence. I watch these movies like everyone else. I wouldn't say I have a special attraction to gun movies, but because in general they are more popular, there tend to be better made than alternatives.

Gad, I think you summarize it all quite nicely.