Lying Away Cancel Culture

[Res Ipsa]

At the same time, I think context is important. And examining and trying to understand the context, in my opinion, involves asking the kind of questions I asked in this thread.

Meh. I am not sure. I don't like these false dilemmas. Why are they concerned about this? Why are they not concerned about that? If they are useful on a certain level, I think they are not useful on others. Maybe I am still failing to get your point, but I do not think that my making a comment is the time to start asking general questions as though we were surveying a person on the street with a multiple-choice question.

I write as someone whose opinions many here know, and I would like to think that we could start there.

That's my preference, but I don't control the conversation. I can handle you doing your own thing with my comment, but the results are going to look like these, and I hope you are fine with that.

I'm not sure I understand your quibble with what I said about "well off celebrities and academics." I didn't say that either group was the "real problem" or even a problem at all. My point is that cancel culture has been around forever, but only when those groups became targets was it portrayed as some kind of crisis.

I am not saying you did. I am saying that you have raised the usual bugbears of the media, the people that corporate media makes money off of, whose cult they cultivate, and whose dismemberment they see dollars signs in.

I'm not sure that labeling a specific group as "the real problem people" gets us any farther. In fact, thought we were trying not to turn our conversation into an attempt to find guilty parties. And there's lots of discussion to be had on the topic of the effect of wealthy individuals on elections and the effect of media on how people perceive and talk about issues.

Maybe so. Right now I am inclined to disagree with you. I believe that we are living in an oligarchy masked as a republican democracy. And I do see runaway super-oligarchs as a real problem that should be addressed. Our system is so well stage-managed and so prohibitively expensive that you basically have to be in or be vetted and welcomed into this tiny elite in order to be elected to high office. That does not reflect my values, and I am comfortable with my position on that.

So, let's talk about Quinn. You know more details than I do. Is it fair to say he was "cancelled" before "cancel culture" entered the lexicon? Why is it a crisis when Pinker is "cancelled" but no one paid attention to Quinn?

He was refused employment at a university in Arizona because the rich guy who funded the position hated him for his writings on Mormonism. I would guess that Quinn does not merit the national attention that Pinker does.

I don't understand your characterization of my questions as a false dilemma. I don't see it as any different in substance from what you are doing when you say "the real problem is..." or "we should be talking about." Those statements indicate to me that you recognize the same thing I do: not all problems are created equal. The only difference in approach that I can see is that I used a question and you used an assertion (either of which is fine).

I'm fine with you responding however you choose to respond.

[ajax18]

Terry Gilliam is one of those convenient targets. He really isn't a person of much consequence in the big scheme of things.

Paula Dean said the "N word" 30 years ago. That was enough to get her show cancelled.

Moving the MLB Allstar Game out of Georgia would be another example of cancel culture in my opinion.

Gina Carrano got fired over this tweet, "Jews were beaten in the streets not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors and even children."

https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/see-gina- ... her-fired/

If it offended Jewish people, that certainly doesn't include Ben Shapiro who helped bring her on to work with the Daily Wire.

I'd be happy to see a conservative Hollywood, maybe in Nashville, as stock exchange in Jacksonville and maybe start playing the US Open in Atlanta to avoid New York and its lockdown policies.

[Kishkumen]

I don't understand your characterization of my questions as a false dilemma. I don't see it as any different in substance from what you are doing when you say "the real problem is..." or "we should be talking about." Those statements indicate to me that you recognize the same thing I do: not all problems are created equal. The only difference in approach that I can see is that I used a question and you used an assertion (either of which is fine).

I'm fine with you responding however you choose to respond.

I am saying that I don't like questions framed as X or Y in complex situations. These constructions tend to push someone into one position or another, when in reality they may not be fairly represented in a binary choice. Do you care about Terry Gilliam or do you care about bakers refusing to make wedding cakes for gay couples?

Where to begin?

In the current climate, why would anyone really want to answer such questions or feel comfortable with people posing them?

It is like "climate surveys" in academia.

How do you feel about people who drown kittens?

(Your great-uncle the farmer who once drowned kittens on the farm was clearly a bad person.)

I know from a very reliable source of a college that issued a climate survey that was billed as but not in fact confidential. The diversity officer of the college was going through all of the faculty responses and reading them with the full knowledge of who had answered in what way. That is so clearly an ethical violation that it would cause a lawsuit in a hot minute if word got out about it.

This is the world we live in, and I think it is frightening.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

… as stock exchange in Jacksonville …

-_-

I don’t believe you understand stock exchanges, nor how they function. Why are you this dogmatically retarded?

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Terry Gilliam is one of those convenient targets. He really isn't a person of much consequence in the big scheme of things.

Paula Dean said the "N word" 30 years ago. That was enough to get her show cancelled.

Now we see the real problem with this conversation: someone comes forward to equate Terry Gilliam's freedom to invite a conversation with Paula Dean's twisted Song of the South fantasy dinners where she refers to the African American serving staff by the n-word.

That is just all kinds of effed up, guy with Confederate general as his avatar.

Moving the MLB Allstar Game out of Georgia would be another example of cancel culture in my opinion.

OK. Don't know much about it, but I am willing to listen.

Gina Carrano got fired over this tweet, "Jews were beaten in the streets not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors and even children."

Good Lord. I want to fire her for being a complete idiot.

If it offended Jewish people

If?

that certainly doesn't include Ben Shapiro who helped bring her on to work with the Daily Wire.

If he is willing to employ the criminally stupid, then by all means . . . .

I'd be happy to see a conservative Hollywood, maybe in Nashville, as stock exchange in Jacksonville and maybe start playing the US Open in Atlanta to avoid New York and its lockdown policies.

You mean the same New York City that made Trump a very wealthy man who attended all of the best parties?

Guffaw.

[Res Ipsa]

I don't understand your characterization of my questions as a false dilemma. I don't see it as any different in substance from what you are doing when you say "the real problem is..." or "we should be talking about." Those statements indicate to me that you recognize the same thing I do: not all problems are created equal. The only difference in approach that I can see is that I used a question and you used an assertion (either of which is fine).

I'm fine with you responding however you choose to respond.

I am saying that I don't like questions framed as X or Y in complex situations. These constructions tend to push someone into one position or another, when in reality they may not be fairly represented in a binary choice. Do you care about Terry Gilliam or do you care about bakers refusing to make wedding cakes for gay couples?

Where to begin?

In the current climate, why would anyone really want to answer such questions or feel comfortable with people posing them?

It is like "climate surveys" in academia.

How do you feel about people who drown kittens?

(Your great-uncle the farmer who once drowned kittens on the farm was clearly a bad person.)

I know from a very reliable source of a college that issued a climate survey that was billed as but not in fact confidential. The diversity officer of the college was going through all of the faculty responses and reading them with the full knowledge of who had answered in what way. That is so clearly an ethical violation that it would cause a lawsuit in a hot minute if word got out about it.

This is the world we live in, and I think it is frightening.

But I didn't frame anything as "X or Y." That's where I'm hung up. I don't think you'll ever find me arguing in support of using false dilemmas/binary thinking/fallacy of the excluded middle. And if you catch me doing so, publicly flog me for it.

I've never heard of a climate survey before, so maybe I don't live in that world. Having read more about your experiences, I can certainly understand better where you are coming from on the issue.

[ajax18]

OK. Don't know much about it, but I am willing to listen.

Because Georgia passed laws that made voting less prone to fraud, Woke controlled Major league baseball moved the All Star game out of Atlanta in protest. Some of us would like to watch a baseball game without having a political narrative put in our face. Some people probably enjoyed watching Paula Dean cook, and I don't quite comprehend how her saying the "NNNNN word" 30 years ago means that people shouldn't be allowed to watch her cook. Or what about California placing a travel ban from Florida due to its lack of lockdown during Covid?

What I'm saying is that in the same way people have protections for race, sexual orientation, etc., they should also have protections based on private political opinion. You shouldn't be able to fire someone just because they're a Democrat or Republican in their off hours. We've criminalized political opinion in this country and yes it will lead to balkanization. But maybe that's a blessing in disguise.

ETA: What do you plan to do to root out systemic racism in policing shouldn't be a question Boeing asks a candidate for a mechanical engineering job.

[Kishkumen]

But I didn't frame anything as "X or Y." That's where I'm hung up. I don't think you'll ever find me arguing in support of using false dilemmas/binary thinking/fallacy of the excluded middle. And if you catch me doing so, publicly flog me for it.

But why did it become an existential threat when it was applied to people in a favored position like Terry Gilliam and not a gay couple looking for a wedding cake?

Perhaps I am overreacting to this question. The first thing I don’t like about it is the characterization of my post as incorrectly depicting the Gilliam incident as an existential threat while also suggesting that I might give a pass to bakers refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings as an issue comparatively lacking in seriousness.

In fact, I see all of these things as stupidly, needlessly divisive. Just bake the effing cake already. You will live if Gilliam asks people their opinion about a comedy routine. I fundamentally hate this hothouse flower fragility of intolerant babies who feel the need to turn everything in life into a political or faith statement.

I really don’t care what people believe unless I am in a place where I look for people to engage with on those issues. Past that I say ignore what people think. Keep what you think to yourself. I hate bumperstickers, t-shirts, and every other thought-deadening publicly masturbatory declaration of a person’s opinions.

What a world of vulgar exhibitionists we live in. The less I know about most people, the better. All I need to know is that they are human beings who deserve the same consideration I do. If they insist on shoving more than that in my face, they will annoy the hell out of me.

Anyhow, it looks like an X or Y question to me, and it really is no big deal when all is said and done.

[Res Ipsa]

OK. Don't know much about it, but I am willing to listen.

Because Georgia passed laws that made voting less prone to fraud, Woke controlled Major league baseball moved the All Star game out of Atlanta in protest. Some of us would like to watch a baseball game without having a political narrative put in our face. Some people probably enjoyed watching Paula Dean cook, and I don't quite comprehend how her saying the "NNNNN word" 30 years ago means that people shouldn't be allowed to watch her cook. Or what about California placing a travel ban from Florida due to its lack of lockdown during Covid?

What I'm saying is that in the same way people have protections for race, sexual orientation, etc., they should also have protections based on private political opinion. You shouldn't be able to fire someone just because they're a Democrat or Republican in their off hours. We've criminalized political opinion in this country and yes it will lead to balkanization. But maybe that's a blessing in disguise.

ETA: What do you plan to do to root out systemic racism in policing shouldn't be a question Boeing asks a candidate for a mechanical engineering job.

LOL. That only flies if there was actual fraud.

Your grievance is with capitalism.

[Kishkumen]

Because Georgia passed laws that made voting less prone to fraud, Woke controlled Major league baseball moved the All Star game out of Atlanta in protest.

Yeah, wow. If you think protecting the right to vote from suppression has the first thing to do with “wokeism,” then you are a nut. It has been shown, time and again, that there is no voter fraud on the level that justifies making it harder for minorities and poor people to vote. All this is about is keeping the “wrong” people from making political decisions as the Constitution provides.

This misrepresentation of the backlash against voter suppression sickens me.

Some of us would like to watch a baseball game without having a political narrative put in our face.

Boofuckinghoo. You mean far be it from you to discomfit Goebbels while he watches the ballet as hundreds of Jews are gassed to death?

Are you for real?

Some people probably enjoyed watching Paula Dean cook, and I don't quite comprehend how her saying the "NNNNN word" 30 years ago means that people shouldn't be allowed to watch her cook.

It’s probably pointless to tell you you are miserably uninformed about the level of creepiness in Paula Dean’s past that should turn anyone with minimal taste off from finding anything she does good for anything but an emetic.

Or what about California placing a travel ban from Florida due to its lack of lockdown during Covid?

Hoho! Please don’t leave *any* evidence of being a moron out of your post. Yes it really is tragic that California did not want its people traveling to a place where the governor actively prevented people from taking sensible precautions against COVID.

You shouldn't be able to fire someone just because they're a Democrat or Republican in their off hours. We've criminalized political opinion in this country and yes it will lead to balkanization.

I was not aware that this was a problem. Yes, I agree that it should not be done. We are close to sounding sane and then . . . .

But maybe that's a blessing in disguise.

Psyche!