Hersh: Obama Did It

[Kishkumen]

And then Obama threatened "article 25" (or whatever) where Harris Becomes president, but then holds off endorsing Harris for a long time because he had someone else in mind for president, all the while Biden KNEW Obama wanted someone else and therefore, could have called his bluff -- there are some bugs to work out.

Kulinski had the same question. I think this is a big problem with the theory.

But, in the broad strokes, I don't have a lot of skepticism regarding the plausibility of the scenario. I have no idea if it is true, and, as honorentheos correctly points out, Hersh has a spotty record. It could be that someone is playing him.

But, I think we should consider the place of Biden in the power structure of his party. He was chosen to be Obama's safe old white guy VP, not because he was viewed as a viable future president. Had he had any pull, he would have been running for pres at the end of Obama's presidency, but Obama talked him out of it, supposedly because Biden was still grieving the loss of his son.

On the other hand, it is well known that important people in the Obama camp thought that Biden was a lightweight and not presidential material. Biden's personal loss made it easy for Obama to talk him out of running. So, Hillary runs.

But Hillary loses. One of her obvious weaknesses happens to be blue collar men, Joe's people. So Joe is put back in play to prevent the second Trump term. Still, opinions of the Clintons and Obama's people have not fundamentally changed. Joe is to run, be president for one term, and hand it off to his VP when his term is over. The younger generation of Democrat leaders is also very unhappy, and only the threat of a second Trump term makes this at all palatable.

Unfortunately, people did not count on Trump running again, and they did not know how successful Biden's presidency would be. Biden probably felt like it would be a bad idea to forego running for the second term, since Democrats still had some of the same Rust Belt vulnerabilities and Joe won the first time. Meanwhile, Joe's age is increasingly showing, and he appears to lack the stamina and clarity to make it through a second term, perhaps even his first. When he drops the ball in the debate with Trump, his detractors seize the initiative and push him out.

In the run up to his departure from the race, there are questions that bother me. First, Biden was really digging in his heels. Second, we have no idea what was really going on with his mysterious illness. Third, the complaints about polls are just stupid. If you look at the history of polling, Biden was well within touching distance of prevailing. Every time someone points to his polling, it is an insult to our intelligence. We are supposed to believe that, while Reagan could be down 17 points in the polls and still win, Biden might be within the margin of error but would definitely lose?

Finally, I have become, since about 2007, increasingly wary of the coordinated messaging we see in the media and among political leaders. Right now, the message is "JP Vance is weird." All Democrats near a mic or camera are saying "weird." Occupy Wall Street was hit with "they don't know what they want." The mantra was repeated ad nauseam until everyone parroted it. Media people on the Center and Left, with few exceptions, were ready to band together to say Joe had to go, and then they all quickly banded together to thank him for his heroic departure. Before Biden pulled out, I heard marginal but persistent messages about how rank and file voters were opposed to Biden pulling out, while leaders of the party were lining up to end their support for Biden.

I am supposed to believe that these leaders were "just listening to their constituents"? I don't think it generally works that way. I think there is a lot of horsetrading and pushing to get people lined up. Lyndon B. Johnson on the phone with the carrot and the stick type of stuff. I think it is kind of naïve to imagine that this happened in the way that the coordinated "messaging" is selling. I don't know whether Obama threatened the old guy with the 25th or what, but I do believe that he was probably feeling strong pressure to get out, and that Obama and his people, the Clintons, and other party leaders were the pushers/bullies. Who do you think had the power to work the financial pressure?

[Jersey Girl]

How is that relevant to the topic of this thread?

How does your statement even make sense?

If you don't believe something "hard enough" then it's already false to you, Exiled. Geez.

You immediately doubt the Hersch story because it doesn't fit your Biden's leaving as patriotic narrative. It's simply too early to cast so much doubt on what Hersch reports. Biden was campaigning in Las Vegas right before this supposed patriotic moment. Sure, he could have had a sudden change of heart after seeing the flag or something. Or the donors cutting off funding, pressure from other insiders combined with Obama giving a reluctant Biden a forceful push in the other way could be what really happened.

Anyway, the hero narrative is seductive and safe. So, obviously believe what you want.

Hey don't shift your crummy articulation and thought processes over to me, Exiled. What you said there made absolutely no sense.

My skepticism isn't married to what I believe to be true about Biden. It's based on the more likely explanation.

In your above you are missing several steps in thought in consideration.

[Jersey Girl]

I don’t see it as impossible that Biden could have campaigned up until the moment that he changed his mind. There’s no mandated period of imposed inactivity required when someone is deciding between two different courses of action.

I also am not seeing why you pose the situation as only being the result of one of two inputs (heroic or coerced). Seems that Obama could have given his opinion without the fanciful scenario of him somehow controlling donors or the DNC, and Biden could have considered Obama’s opinion (if it was given) in deciding what he should do, adding that input to his own reasons.

You’ve loaded a whole lot of improbable-sounding conditions into the decision. It would help if you spoke more to why you believe that they should be seriously considered.

All I've done is push back on Jersey's and Honor's knee-jerk denials. They want to preserve Biden as the patriotic hero of our times. Given that the partisan press is too eager to paint their candidate in a heroic light, I think skepticism is proper. Also, skepticism is proper with respect to Hersch. However, it's too early to dismiss Hersch's reporting at this point. More information, sources, are needed and in stories like this, it comes out well into the future when people let their guard down.

Who taught you to characterize your adversary in terms such as having a knee-jerk denial and what's with the mind reading with regard to to either mine or honor's motivations?

Just look at this nonsense you've assigned to me and also honor.

They want to preserve Biden as the patriotic hero of our times.

Did it occur to you to ask me why I reject the allegations in question? Because if you think I'm politically motivated in that regard you're completely off the mark.

honor and I are not the same person. He is far more well versed in political strategic thinking and politics in general than I am as is most everyone else on these threads. They know that. I know that. Now you know that.

I'll help you out. My unbelieving position with regard to to the allegations has little to do with politics. It has to do with a life long interest in human behavior and a multi-decade professional life with its foundation in the behavioral sciences. If you came across the questions I posed to Shades, those are all behavior related questions.

Someone is going to have to convince me that Obama,who is on the higher end of the IQ range (observation based) and certainly politically successful and also in possession of a JD, threatened Joe Biden with the 25th amendment while implicating Kamala Harris in the threat thus putting his own legacy and her potential legacy at risk because Obama overlooked the possibility that, in the world of politics where information leaks like a sieve, this particular information might be leaked as well and without thinking that if he were to be found out that he would put his legacy, his life and that of his own family at risk for harassment and possible physical attack leading to injury and/or death.

And before you say that my mention of injury and/or death is hyperbole, keep in mind that someone just tried to assassinate DJT with a fairly full compliment of security in tow and damn near succeeded.\

In any case, don't assume where people are coming from. Learn to make inquiry and find out.

[canpakes]

Someone is going to have to convince me that Obama,who is on the higher end of the IQ range (observation based) and certainly politically successful and also in possession of a JD, threatened Joe Biden with the 25th amendment while implicating Kamala Harris in the threat thus putting his own legacy and her potential legacy at risk because Obama overlooked the possibility that, in the world of politics where information leaks like a sieve, this particular information might be leaked as well and without thinking that if he were to be found out that he would put his legacy, his life and that of his own family at risk for harassment and possible physical attack leading to injury and/or death.

And for what reason? Did Kamala promise him a nicer parking spot in the White House lot?

[Kishkumen]

Someone is going to have to convince me that Obama,who is on the higher end of the IQ range (observation based) and certainly politically successful and also in possession of a JD, threatened Joe Biden with the 25th amendment while implicating Kamala Harris in the threat thus putting his own legacy and her potential legacy at risk because Obama overlooked the possibility that, in the world of politics where information leaks like a sieve, this particular information might be leaked as well and without thinking that if he were to be found out that he would put his legacy, his life and that of his own family at risk for harassment and possible physical attack leading to injury and/or death.

I don’t think he would risk physical attack or death that way, but I think your point about him finding a more nuanced and unobtrusive way of pushing Biden out is solid. My guess is Biden is vulnerable because he is not central in the Democrat social network.

[Jersey Girl]

Someone is going to have to convince me that Obama,who is on the higher end of the IQ range (observation based) and certainly politically successful and also in possession of a JD, threatened Joe Biden with the 25th amendment while implicating Kamala Harris in the threat thus putting his own legacy and her potential legacy at risk because Obama overlooked the possibility that, in the world of politics where information leaks like a sieve, this particular information might be leaked as well and without thinking that if he were to be found out that he would put his legacy, his life and that of his own family at risk for harassment and possible physical attack leading to injury and/or death.

I don’t think he would risk physical attack or death that way,

Fair enough.

but I think your point about him finding a more nuanced and unobtrusive way of pushing Biden out is solid.

Oh goodness yes! I doubt he'd outright threaten his former VP with the 25th and implicate KH at the same time potentially undermining her efforts and destroying her political future.

Wonder if the alleged call was recorded?

My guess is Biden is vulnerable because he is not central in the Democrat social network.

I would certainly consider that.

[Gadianton]

In the run up to his departure from the race, there are questions that bother me. First, Biden was really digging in his heels. Second, we have no idea what was really going on with his mysterious illness. Third, the complaints about polls are just stupid. If you look at the history of polling, Biden was well within touching distance of prevailing. Every time someone points to his polling, it is an insult to our intelligence. We are supposed to believe that, while Reagan could be down 17 points in the polls and still win, Biden might be within the margin of error but would definitely lose?

What are the driving reasons to want him out? In order of importance, I'd say it's 1) can he function? 2) can he win? 3) does he represent the agenda of elite Democrats? 4) does he reflect the personal aspirations of a super elite like Obama?

The most corrupt state of affairs is if Democrat voters want Biden, but a super elite pulls a #4 under the pretense of #1 or #2. The least corrupt state is if Biden's health issues are worse than the public has been made aware and now it's going to be dealt with and the only practical way at this stage is to handle it internally. How bad is it to cover up his health issues? The fact that Republicans have shown so much concern over it tells you that it's not so simple. If I think Peter Zeihen is trustworthy when he says Biden is the Best president we've had in forever (much better than Obama), and if I trust the keys, then Biden is the guy to run, especially considering the stakes. If I think there's a 50% chance that Biden can't function after 6 months into his term, but I need that extra key to keep Trump out, then I'm okay with his health issues being covered up. I believe a significant scandal is a key loss; a health cover-up might be a scandal but only if caught, while admitting brain cancer yet he's still running is for sure a scandal. This isn't a war between lawful good and evil, it's a war between good and chaotic evil. My only hope is to trust the inner circle, that their use of inside information is for the greater good of keeping Trump out and not a coup to satisfy their own tastes for a more progressive agenda at a greater risk of a loss.

Finally, I have become, since about 2007, increasingly wary of the coordinated messaging we see in the media and among political leaders. Right now, the message is "JP Vance is weird." All Democrats near a mic or camera are saying "weird." Occupy Wall Street was hit with "they don't know what they want." The mantra was repeated ad nauseam until everyone parroted it. Media people on the Center and Left, with few exceptions, were ready to band together to say Joe had to go, and then they all quickly banded together to thank him for his heroic departure. Before Biden pulled out, I heard marginal but persistent messages about how rank and file voters were opposed to Biden pulling out, while leaders of the party were lining up to end their support for Biden.

Yeah, there's good and bad with that. When Kamala's acceptance by Democrat voters was better than it appeared anyone thought it would be, adding to the momentum by repeating this fact can only be good. But lots of the messaging is dumb. I'm not a huge fan of pitting Harris as prosecutor vs. felon, as his conviction isn't accepted as legitimate by his base and a lot of swing voters as well aren't going to be sure about it. I'd stick with his assaults on the system as President that are out in the open. I'm not a huge fan of the race baiting either. I think that plays into their hands; the optics are that liberals are easily offended and care about form over substance. Focus more on his plans to prosecute interstate abortions federally than his "cat" remarks. As for Biden resigning graciously as an uber-president, I don't care. It's very possible he was bitter about it and felt he had been beaten, and that he would have continued to run in defiance of what was best for the country if he saw a way forward, but nowhere in politics is any party going to be so brutally honest; this is politics as usual. It did actually appear to me there was quite a bit of difference of opinion of whether he should stay or go. MT was like, stay, TYT was like, go.

[drumdude]

considering the stakes. If I think there's a 50% chance that Biden can't function after 6 months into his term, but I need that extra key to keep Trump out, then I'm okay with his health issues being covered up. I believe a significant scandal is a key loss; a health cover-up might be a scandal but only if caught,

This is a very dangerous line of reasoning. Why stop there? Why not just rig the election, if Trump is deemed such an existential threat to democracy? American voters don’t need to be informed or have any choice, let’s protect them from themselves.

[Gadianton]

Yeah, my explanation won't be popular, but I think it makes sense; I think it explains why many of us would be okay with a certain amount of cover-up. I could lie and come up with something I don't believe, but that makes me sound more pious if you would like.

You may think that ends justifying means is all equally bad, and maybe you're one of the few people who only considers the means, but I think it's unrealistic to believe that very many people if any person in practice operates like this. I'd hope that like myself, you would lie to protect a Jewish family from Nazi soldiers knocking on the door. There is a real chance we may get such opportunities under the Heritage Foundation reign via Trump/Vance.

To my knowledge, there is no law that requires health screenings of presidents or cognitive screenings of presidents, and that such screenings be released to the public to make sure their voting is fully informed. If there were, and if such a law had solid precedent, then falsifying results would be a more significant foot on the path to stealing an election, although it still wouldn't be fake elector schemes and inventing votes. That's still much farther down the path. Perhaps you want to know the details of the president's health and believe everyone should take those details into consideration, but perhaps I don't want to know the details, and don't want you to consider them. Since there is no law or rule about it, it's only the 'honest Abe' urge that would legitimize your viewpoint above mine. Perhaps a prospective employer would be better served if I turn in a health screening before they present me an offer. Perhaps it would be really sweet of me to admit that I have an illness that may affect my ability to perform. Sure, a president's job is more important than mine, but such as it is, the rules aren't any different.

Oh, and lest we forget, Trump's public health statements are typically lies. Not that I care at all, but for the record.

[Moksha]

And the source for this little extra nugget? An official of some kind whose qualifications are they are experienced in fundraising, spilling tea to an 80-something journalist most recently famous for claiming Joe Biden ordered a Russian pipeline to be sabotaged.

Sounds like Kodos and Kronos. They can look down with their space equipment, see everything, and are plugged into the Q network.

Kodos and Kronos informed Marjorie Taylor Greene about the Jewish space lasers.