I have yet to see Ajax and Subby claim to be traitors.
Well, nobody who is one ever says they are, do they?
But that's not the point I am making - which is not about 'Shall we call them an X, or a Y?'. These people have made it plain that they have no problem with a mob breaking into the Capitol, assaulting (even killing) the police officers who tried to protect the Representatives and Senators deliberating therein, and threatening to hang the Vice-President because he refused to ignore his constitutional duty to certify the election.
People who do that do not deserve anything but the most brutal frankness from anybody on this board. There is no point in trying to establish friendly dialogue with these enemies of democracy and friends of lies and violence.
(Of course, Shades, we must never disinvite them ... that would be, well, improper.)
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
With this above statement as proof, there no longer can be the slightest doubt whatsoever that Ajax is in fact a traitor to the United States and democracy!
Make a file and save the quote. Pull it out when you leftists start to consume and enslave each other. Democracy is not freedom.
It may be true that democracy by itself is not enough to assure freedom or exactly synonymous with freedom, but it is an indispensable component of freedom. You have made it blazingly clear that the freedom you value the most is the right to be an intolerant bigot who wants to deny equality under the law to any who don't share your race, ethnicity, religion or politics. You don't really hate tyranny per se, as long it is authorized and practiced by authorities who share your political beliefs.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
Make a file and save the quote. Pull it out when you leftists start to consume and enslave each other. Democracy is not freedom.
It may be true that democracy by itself is not enough to assure freedom or exactly synonymous with freedom, but it is an indispensable component of freedom. You have made it blazingly clear that the freedom you value the most is the right to be an intolerant bigot who wants to deny equality under the law to any who don't share your race, ethnicity, religion or politics. You don't really hate tyranny per se, as long it is authorized and practiced by authorities who share your political beliefs.
This is so true, except Trump doesn't even have to really share his political beliefs. He only has to pretend he's on their team, and the ajax types will lap it up like the needy kooks they are.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.
Calling out people like Ajax and Subgenius for what they openly claim to be is simply calling a spade a spade. It has nothing in common with a witch hunt.
I fully agree with you on this issue, and this is one of the very few issues on which I am not entirely in agreement with RI. Ajax et al certainly have the right to express their traitorous views under the first amendment, and are not necessarily criminally indictable merely for expressing them, as long as they don't actually act on them, but I don't think it is necessarily unreasonable or unfair to regard them as de facto traitors for holding and expressing them.
Last edited by Gunnar on Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
This is so true, except Trump doesn't even have to really share his political beliefs. He only has to pretend he's on their team, and the ajax types will lap it up like the needy kooks they are.
This is a big part of the tragedy of it. Ajax has been duped by a self-serving charlatan who really doesn't even believe himself the lies he has successfully deluded Ajax et al into believing.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
Calling out people like Ajax and Subgenius for what they openly claim to be is simply calling a spade a spade. It has nothing in common with a witch hunt.
I fully agree with you on this issue, and this is one of the very few issues on which I am not entirely in agreement with RI. Ajax et al certainly have the right to express their traitorous views under the first amendment, and are not necessarily criminally indictable merely for expressing them, as long as they don't actually act on them, but I don't think it is necessarily unreasonable or unfair to regard them as de facto traitors for holding and expressing them.
Disagreement is welcome. I think Chap is right about my use of the term witch hunt. It was a bad metaphor. And I think you both make reasonable arguments. Gonna have to think more on this.
he/him we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.
I fully agree with you on this issue, and this is one of the very few issues on which I am not entirely in agreement with RI. Ajax et al certainly have the right to express their traitorous views under the first amendment, and are not necessarily criminally indictable merely for expressing them, as long as they don't actually act on them, but I don't think it is necessarily unreasonable or unfair to regard them as de facto traitors for holding and expressing them.
Disagreement is welcome. I think Chap is right about my use of the term witch hunt. It was a bad metaphor. And I think you both make reasonable arguments. Gonna have to think more on this.
When we use the term traitor as per sub and ajax, we do not in any way mean that they fit the definition of a prosecutable traitor under the laws. With all due respect, It is a mistake to interpret our usage of the term in that way and argue against it as if we did.
You're right. Democracy isn't freedom and never has been in an absolute sense. Little "d" democracy is instead about equality of opportunity, nothing more and nothing less. Your vote, my vote are just two relatively equal votes. Your access to public goods and my access to public goods are ideally means for us to rise above the class-based oppression and subjugation that shackled and still shackles most of humanity to a destiny written in stone at their birth into a given class. And through that realize our potential. Our contribution to ensuring those public goods is an expression of civic belief in the hope that is democracy. The return on that investment is in the society it enables.
Democracy has never been a guarantee of unrestrained behavior and will. In fact, democracy is fragile. It depends on each generation to recommit to it for it to survive.
Democracy can easily turn to mob rule. Conversely, entitlement can easily lead to disgust with the results of democratic actions. We saw Democrats in 2016 be disgusted with the institutions of our republic and we see violence and attempts at sedition to prevent the peaceful transfer of power to thwart those same democratic institutions this last week by some supporters of Donald Trump. Neither represents an understanding of what our system of government requires. Nor do such responses acknowledge the fragility of democracy.
Democracy isn't freedom because unfettered freedom isn't democratic. Anarchy isn't democratic. Left unrestrained by something greater, there are always those in power and those subjected to the powerful. Democracy is an attempt to create space for humanity through higher principles and institutuonal strength to break that paradigm of tyranny and somehow rise above it. And it is a covenant of sorts rather than a right.
Especially when it rebuffs Trump's belief that everyone should worship him. Keep a shrine in your heart and home for Trump, next to the ones for the Confederate Generals, Benito Mussolini, and Sauron.
