Split from Dawkins Thread

[_GoodK]

...now if you were to try and patch things up with my gal Sam then - heck - who knows how close to 'friendship' we could find ourselves...!

Well I may just do that... for the sake of our potential friendship :)

And Sam seems like a good gal, I don't begrudge her for that whole thing... we all seem to get a little hot under the collar here from time to time...

[_beastie]

No, first you need to tell me why that's relevant.

I haven't read any replies after this one, but will reply to this one first.

First, it is relevant because it is possible that generational differences may be a factor in these various perspectives. Women who are 60+ are from a far different generation than women who are younger than 40, which moniker is. If your age, as I suspect, is 60+, you were brought up in an entirely different culture than moniker was, in particular in regards to the idea that "women ask for it". I'm not saying that you are saying "women ask" to be raped, so be clear on that. I do think you are saying women ask for men to be sexually aggressive through the way they dress (and what avatars they use).

If you are 60+, as I suspect, and I know moniker is under 40, I am smack in between the two of you at 50. That's why I think I can recognize the difference between these two generational attitudes about female behavior - because my generation was the one that was starting to challenge and change some of these ideas.

Second, I think it may be relevant because it is not unusual for older women to experience some jealousy towards younger women, who are still their prime regarding sexual power.

I may expand on this later, but want to finish reading subsequent posts.

[_beastie]

Ok, I've caught up on the subsequent posts and want to comment on the avatar bit.

Perhaps my problem is that I over-estimate the intelligence of people. Someone picks on avatar that, for whatever reason, appeals to them at that moment. Big whoop. But do posters actually see an avatar of a beautiful woman, and think, hey, that female poster is asking for sexual attention!!! Or even assume that the poster in question is as attractive as the avatar???

Are people really this stupid?

Personally, I always viewed moniker's avatars as expressions of female power and beauty. Certainly not as sexual invitations. I've seen similar avatars used on my old atheist board, and I don't recall anyone acting as if they were sexual invitations. In fact, my old atheist site used to have an archive of member pictures, and I posted a picture of myself in a little black dress that showed some leg, laughing at something that had just happened. Even worse, I was at a conference so happened to be in a hotel room. It wasn't a provocative picture at all, in my opinion. But I certainly looked like an attractive woman. (I can say that without feeling like I'm bragging because I'm ten years older now) I did, occasionally, have posters comment on the fact that they thought I was quite attractive, but I never had a single poster hit on me or make sexual comments of any sort towards me. In fact, I'll be brazen and actually post it here:



Again, let me emphasize: no one hit on me after I shared this picture. No one made sexually suggestive comments to me.

But moniker can't post attractive females as her avatars without having to be accused of "asking for it"?

On another thread, moniker stated that it seems like this site is like a rumspringa for Mormons and exmormons. Other Mormon and exmormon sites are the same way, unless they're strictly moderated. I still think there is a connection. I think it's somewhat like being brought up in a teetotal culture - at first, you really can't figure out how to act around alcohol. You act like a teenager, even if you're middle aged.

[_Moniker]

Beastie, you are soooo beautiful in every possible way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPyRTY_Q ... re=related

[_beastie]

Aw, mon, you're sweet. I'll probably chicken out and take it down shortly. I don't want marg to lecture me about being a slut who's asking for it.

[_Moniker]

Not sweet -- honest!

I'm so glad you're on this board and that I "met" you! Thank "God" for beastie -- the voice of sanity. :)

[_marg]

Again, let me emphasize: no one hit on me after I shared this picture. No one made sexually suggestive comments to me.

Right, well I don't think your picture gives the impression you were wanting that attention, nor have any of your posts. But let's say it was a photo which did, and let's say from various things you've said you also gave that impression, would you then complain and say you have no idea why anyone should respond with interest?

But moniker can't post attractive females as her avatars without having to be accused of "asking for it"?

It's more than that Beastie, it's things she has said. And frankly I'm just telling her as it is. I'm not playing games with her.

On another thread, moniker stated that it seems like this site is like a rumspringa for Mormons and exmormons. Other Mormon and exmormon sites are the same way, unless they're strictly moderated. I still think there is a connection. I think it's somewhat like being brought up in a teetotal culture - at first, you really can't figure out how to act around alcohol. You act like a teenager, even if you're middle aged.

On this site actually the guys are quite reserved, it's the women on here who generally are the ones being flirtateous or playful. I think for the most part the guys are afraid to respond in like manner or they'll be accused of being perverts. Or in this case, different from the average non Mormon.

I do think there are some differences in Mormon men versus those outside that culture. The Mormon culture certainly encourages a traditional role of men being the boss of the home, and women being the subservient one. But keep in mind there are few Mormon men on this site and the ones who are I don't see as being flirtatious or coming on to Moniker.

Who in particular do you have in mind? Will? I hardly see him posting here.

And let's get back to something basic here, what I'm telling Moniker is the impression I have that she encourages and wants that sort of attention. That's not a judgmental call. Just as Tal made the same observation, but not a judgment call. There is a difference. But Moniker it seems wants to turn this into something it is not, and now play a victim role. As if she's hurt by my observation. Hmmm, not hurt by Tal's though. This thread almost seems like another ploy to get men to come to her aid because she's hurt. Poor moniker.

Your interest is different in this, you think the Mormon culture does make men act immature towards women, and maybe you've seen some of that over the years on the internet, I don't know. But when it comes to Moniker, she's presented an image, which is her doing. And if guys react to it, and she doesn't like it, then change the image.

[_marg]

No, first you need to tell me why that's relevant.

I haven't read any replies after this one, but will reply to this one first.

First, it is relevant because it is possible that generational differences may be a factor in these various perspectives. Women who are 60+ are from a far different generation than women who are younger than 40, which moniker is. If your age, as I suspect, is 60+, you were brought up in an entirely different culture than moniker was, in particular in regards to the idea that "women ask for it". I'm not saying that you are saying "women ask" to be raped, so be clear on that. I do think you are saying women ask for men to be sexually aggressive through the way they dress (and what avatars they use).

First no, I'm not 60+. Of course I would not suggest anyone asks to be raped. Aren't you presenting a slippery slope argument? Because I say based on moniker's avatars and the things she has said that she's asking to be noticed by guys in a sexual way, that now it's turning into an argument close to she's asking to be raped? Who on this board has been sexually aggressive? And if the complaint is of pm's well then it doesn't take a genius to figure out rules of society in real life change when the anonymity of the internet comes into play.

If you are 60+, as I suspect, and I know moniker is under 40, I am smack in between the two of you at 50. That's why I think I can recognize the difference between these two generational attitudes about female behavior - because my generation was the one that was starting to challenge and change some of these ideas.

Beastie we are talking about a message board. If we go out into the real world, how people dress for example for business affects their image and progression up the corporate ladder. That's the reality of life. And keep in mind Beastie, where have I made a judgment call. I haven't. You guys are trying to infer one. Look my brother married a Russian stripper. My parents helped her and her friend get away from the Russion mob, by allowing them to stay in their house. I've never thought poorly of her, she's the best thing for him. A very kind loving person. And my parents also didn't make any negative judgment calls, that's how I grew up. I have friends who live very wild lives, I'm used to it, and don't make judgment calls. This has nothing to do with making judgment calls, or being a prude. I know Moniker would like it to be that, but it's not.

She's the one complaining of this attention, and I'm just telling her why she's getting it, and for her not to play dumb.

Second, I think it may be relevant because it is not unusual for older women to experience some jealousy towards younger women, who are still their prime regarding sexual power.

Right, because I tell Moniker the obvious, I don't play "the emperor has not clothes" you look for an excuse that I'm jealous. If that satisifies you, use it.

[_beastie]

First no, I'm not 60+. Of course I would not suggest anyone asks to be raped. Aren't you presenting a slippery slope argument? Because I say based on moniker's avatars and the things she has said that she's asking to be noticed by guys in a sexual way, that now it's turning into an argument close to she's asking to be raped? Who on this board has been sexually aggressive? And if the complaint is of pm's well then it doesn't take a genius to figure out rules of society in real life change when the anonymity of the internet comes into play.

Marg, PLEASE read posts carefully before you respond. This is not the first time you've done this. I clearly specified that I did NOT believe you were talking about rape!! I made that clarification because I didn't want you, or anyone else, to think that my phrase "asking for it" was referring to rape.

You even quoted my citation, and STILL got it wrong.

I said:

First, it is relevant because it is possible that generational differences may be a factor in these various perspectives. Women who are 60+ are from a far different generation than women who are younger than 40, which moniker is. If your age, as I suspect, is 60+, you were brought up in an entirely different culture than moniker was, in particular in regards to the idea that "women ask for it". I'm not saying that you are saying "women ask" to be raped, so be clear on that. I do think you are saying women ask for men to be sexually aggressive through the way they dress (and what avatars they use).

How is it that you can possibly read those words and then say I am turning it into an argument CLOSE to being raped??????

Sexually aggressive = making uninvited sexual comments to a woman

I have interacted with moniker on threads many, many times. I do not believe she's been anything other than FRIENDLY. I do NOT see her being overly flirtatious or making suggestive comments to posters.

If this is not a generational issue, then it is a personal issue. She humiliated JAK and you can't stand it.

by the way, if you've been married 40 years, you're close enough to 60 for my comments to stand. Whether or not my comments are accurate, who knows. Aside from how applicable it is to you, I do believe my comments are accurate observations about the occasional tension between older and younger women.

[_Moniker]

Marg, would you please stop saying I'm playing dumb. I say why I got the sort of attention I did and do. Can you NOT comprehend that getting attention is not the same as desiring it? Is that really that hard to comprehend?

When I walk out of my home and dress cute I don't mind if men notice. I DO mind if a man walks up to me says something lewd and says that my "cuteness" was telling him to act like an ass. Do you really not see what you're suggesting here?

If someone yells something lewd to me and I happen to be dressed to go out at night is that me wanting that man to say something lewd to me?

Marg, you're a nut.

You keep saying I WANT certain attention. Liz makes FAR more sexual posts than I do -- please just agree with me. She doesn't get guys acting nuts to her (according to her). So, there's something else here, dontcha think, marg? If Liz has incredibly sexy avatars, makes role playing threads, speaks about goddess suites often and does NOT get the attention I do maybe it's something else, ya think?

Also marg, it does have to do with judgment calls. You say me saying that I'm single is desiring sexual attention. WTF?????

Once again, YOU tell me why you told Ren he had sexual fantasies about me. This is YOUR issue marg -- not mine. You seriously have a problem with other women, I think.