Personhood and Abortion Rights

[_Markk]

I've never once said anything about the "state" enforcing anything onto a woman. What ever in the hell are you talking about? You're too busy trying to make false equivalencies and recreating what's real because the question is just too difficult for you to answer.

Yes you did,

Kevin wrote...As far as my "line" goes, I'd say once the brain and spinal cord has developed enough to allow the fetus to feel pain the woman shouldn't be allowed to abort unless there are abnormalities or her life is in danger.

If goverment would not enforce that who would

You also wrote...which implies law and goverment

Kevin wrote...Science tells us a fetus cannot feel pain until the third trimester. It is already illegal to abort a fetus in the third trimester unless it is medically necessary.

And you wrote...which implies you agree with the state restricting the right to chooses My line is at the beginning, and your line is at 7 months.

kevin wrote...As far as where I draw the line, I agree with most laws and most states from what I understand already prohibit late term abortions.

So when I wrote...

Mark wrote ....Also you believe the state should be able to take away a woman's right to choose, but at a later time within 280+- days of gestation?

You already concede you support goverment restrictions and laws that prohibit a right to choose...which you conceded is enforced (by law) in using your words "most states...prohibit" ...and that you agree with those laws...which I do also.

So again to my point...we both support state sponsored laws that prohibit a woman's right to choose, in regards to life in the womb...where we disagree is where the legal line should be drawn.

So I think we are closer than you think once the political talking points are removed Kevin. It is a tough subject to discuss and at this point in our society I am not sure what the answer is in that we are so polarized.

[_Themis]

So again to my point...we both support state sponsored laws that prohibit a woman's right to choose, in regards to life in the womb...where we disagree is where the legal line should be drawn.

Should a women have the right to choose an abortion if she was raped Markk?

[_Maksutov]

Bioethics are tough. Abortion is difficult, so is euthanasia. Traditional religion and religious concepts are inadequate.

[_Elphaba]

I think we can agree that abortions are not healthy mentally and physically.

I'm not sure what you mean by abortion not being "physically healthy," but I assume you're speaking of safety. If so, you are absolutely wrong that people "agree" abortions are not physically safe. In fact, scientific studies of abortion show it is one of the safest procedures a woman can have--much safer than childbirth.

For example, in a 2015 study published in Ovid, and entitled Incidence of Emergency Department Visits and Complications After Abortion, researchers found that major complications from abortion are rare, occurring less than a quarter of one percent of procedures. This is:

About the same frequency of complications as for colonoscopies.
Less frequent than complications for wisdom tooth removal and tonsillectomy.

As far as being emotionally unhealthy, the only studies I've seen indicate women commonly suffer serious and emotional aftereffects from an abortion have been commissioned by organizations religiously opposed to abortion. Every scientific, non-religious study I've seen concludes it depends on the woman's belief system. If she has no religious opposition, she may not like the idea, but generally suffers few to no serious aftereffects.

For example, you offered some anecdotal descriptions of women you know personally suffering emotionally after having had an abortion. You also indicated you're a person of faith, and I'm sure most, if not all of these women were as well. I also have an anecdotal example--myself. I had an abortion in 1980, and my only emotional aftereffect was extreme relief that I was living in a time and place where it was legal and safe. I've also known numerous other women whose experience was the same as mine. I generally run in non-religious circles, so it stands to reason the women I knew did not suffer emotional aftereffects of their abortions, while the women you knew did.

The point being, it was not the abortion that caused their suffering, which I agree is real. It was their religious beliefs about their abortions.

Let me just state I realize the above is a very simplistic approach and there are always exceptions. Given the nature of a message board, it's too difficult to get into each and every women's experience with abortion. But I stand by what I wrote as generally true in the majority of women who've had an abortion.

Elphaba

[_Markk]

]
Should a women have the right to choose an abortion if she was raped Markk?

That's a very hard question for me to compartmentalize. I will do the best I can while being 100% honest with myself.

My emotional belief is yes they should have a choice in that I can't imagine having that happen to my wife or daughter. I would have no blame or condemnation for a woman, or couple together, that made that choice.

I also believe that it is a child in the stages of infancy in the womb, and that it has the human rights the same as you and I, and it is not their fault how they were conceived and they have every right to live.

I might very well choose to do the former, while knowing it it is not the right decision...so I guess my answer to you is yes, they should have the right to choose, but I also believe it is not the right thing to do and while both choices deserve my respect, the greater respect might go to the woman and/or couple that chose to keep the child. Especially knowing in my heart that I doubt that I am that strong.

This, right or wrong , is my honest answer.

Themis wrote...I may not like abortion, but I'm fine with a women having the choice and think women should have that right. That is what I am asking you. Not about whether you think having an abortion is fine.

Generally...I believe that women should not just have the right...like Kevin, but at a earlier age and for different reasons.

I believe the child has rights to. It is that simple, yet that complicated. I cannot justify the women's right to choose by telling myself the baby is not a viable living being...obviously others can, I get that.

You said you do not like abortion...why?

[_subgenius]

[_canpakes]

Well, now. None of that is accurate.

As such, the only point it makes is that you’re either a liar for posting it, or a fool for reposting it.

[_Kevin Graham]

Science tells us a fetus cannot feel pain until the third trimester. It is already illegal to abort a fetus in the third trimester unless it is medically necessary.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you have anhidrosis, congenital analgesia, or CIPA then its perfectly acceptable to kill you...because Science.

And no one with a brain thinks this is actually what I said.

Grown adults who are alive, can feel emotion, are conscious, are aware of their own existence, have experienced the world, have loved and have people who love them, should not be killed simply because they suffer from an illness than prohibits them from feeling physical pain. Equating these people to a zygote that hasn't even implanted to the uterus and has only a 40% chance of succeeding in that, is pretty damned stupid.

Substupid, ladies and Gentleman!

[_subgenius]

Well, now. None of that is accurate.

As such, the only point it makes is that you’re either a liar for posting it, or a fool for reposting it.

except for the parts about
"you can choose to keep your doctor"
"you can choose to own a AR-15 with high capacity magazines for self-defense"
"you can choose to not fund planned parenthood"

but yeah, maybe that last one is only accurate under the current legislation proposed in Vermont.

So, yeah you definitely carry the banner for all things "accurate".

[_EAllusion]

"Pro-choice" clearly means "pro-the choice to have an abortion." You have to be in a near coma to not understand that this doesn't mean "pro the choice to do anything you want" just because they picked a term that has a positive connotation. Likewise, "pro-life" means "pro-making it illegal to have an abortion." We also understand this doesn't mean "pro-making it illegal to kill anything that is alive." We just accept they picked a term with positive connotation. We implicitly understand the fact that a pro-lifer is eating something that used to be alive doesn't make them a hypocrite.

This is about the level at which subs is able to argue things, so I'm inclined to think this one isn't trolling so much as what he thinks passes for clever observation.