MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_canpakes
_Emeritus
Posts: 8541
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:54 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _canpakes »

There will be a reckoning.


Well, I don’t think anyone would have expected that Trump would try to be the grownup in the room on any occasion, let alone now. So let’s see him double down on the childish snowflake persecution rants. That’s what Makes America Great.
_Ceeboo
_Emeritus
Posts: 7625
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:58 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Ceeboo »

Not sure how true this is on a large scale, but more than a few of the democrats I know personally in real life - friends, family members, coworkers, etc (To be fair, a pretty small sample considering the number of D's in the country) feel like they have been duped by democratic leadership over the last 2 years. Two of them actually said that this is the last straw for them, that they have had enough, and are walking away from the democratic party.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.
_canpakes
_Emeritus
Posts: 8541
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:54 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _canpakes »

Ceeboo wrote:Not sure how true this is on a large scale, but more than a few of the democrats I know personally in real life - friends, family members, coworkers, etc (To be fair, a pretty small sample considering the number of D's in the country) feel like they have been duped by democratic leadership over the last 2 years. Two of them actually said that this is the last straw for them, that they have had enough, and are walking away from the democratic party.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

They can be welcomed into the ranks of independent (no party affiliation) voters like myself.

Related, I remember hearing stories being posted online by folks talking about their Democratic Party-aligned friends who were supposedly so disgusted with Democratic leadership after the Kavanaugh hearings, and how these folks were now supposedly going to help cement the House’s Red Wave firmly in place during the 2018 elections, as revenge. Seems as though those claims ended up being a bit exaggerated.

At the end of the day, Trump will still be Trump, and most thinking voters will not suddenly elevate him to sainthood after the Mueller investigation’s close. Many are aware that an investigation took place into the election process, as opposed to buying into Trump’s tendency of characterizing it solely as a ‘witch hunt’ against himself, which we know was not the case. Trump spent two years spewing invective and mistruth against a very long list of folks connected to that investigation, all of whom are far more dedicated and honorable people than the President himself.
_Ceeboo
_Emeritus
Posts: 7625
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:58 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Ceeboo »

Sup cakes!

canpakes wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:Not sure how true this is on a large scale, but more than a few of the democrats I know personally in real life - friends, family members, coworkers, etc (To be fair, a pretty small sample considering the number of D's in the country) feel like they have been duped by democratic leadership over the last 2 years. Two of them actually said that this is the last straw for them, that they have had enough, and are walking away from the democratic party.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

They can be welcomed into the ranks of independent (no party affiliation) voters like myself.

Interesting you say that because one of the people I was talking about said exactly that.

Related, I remember hearing stories being posted online by folks talking about their Democratic Party-aligned friends who were supposedly so disgusted with Democratic leadership after the Kavanaugh hearings, and how these folks were now supposedly going to help cement the House’s Red Wave firmly in place during the 2018 elections, as revenge. Seems as though those claims ended up being a bit exaggerated.

Yeah - I remember. Perhaps these immediate "reactions" (no matter what the reaction is) is just that - and when things cool off some, nothing really changes. I dunno?

At the end of the day, Trump will still be Trump,

That, you can bet the farm on. No doubt about it.
and most thinking voters will not suddenly elevate him to sainthood after the Mueller investigation’s close.

Ohhh, I never suggested that, I didn't even hint at it.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Water Dog wrote:https://Twitter.com/ggreenwald


What, exactly, from his Twitter feed did you find compelling? There just seems to be a bunch of statements that he agrees with AG Barr's summary. Did anyone expect Barr to come out with anything different?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Water Dog
_Emeritus
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Water Dog »

_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Kevin Graham »

https://Twitter.com/SethAbramson/status ... 8333210629

Seth Abramson tweetstorm:

Mueller was supposed to decide if Donald Trump could be charged with Obstruction of Justice—or, if not chargeable, whether he should be referred to Congress for impeachment for Obstruction of Justice. But AG Barr usurped Mueller's job and decided to make that decision himself.

Barr was selected by Donald Trump upon Trump's reading of documents written by Barr and sent to Trump allies arguing Trump *couldn't* be charged with Obstruction of Justice. So in not forcing Mueller to make the decision his appointment obligated him to make, Barr saved Trump.

Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein, a witness in the Obstruction of Justice investigation against Trump, appears to have assisted Barr—who had already put his position on Obstruction in writing prior to his nomination—in usurping Mueller's obligation to make a decision on that question.

Obstruction of Justice is an impeachable offense, and therefore we now have a *witness* in a case and a man who made his views known on the case *before he had any evidence on it*—and who *got his job* because of his view on the question—saving Trump from impeachment for that.

On "collusion," investigative reporters and independent journalists just spent years gathering evidence on a very specific allegation of collusion: that for his own enrichment, Trump traded away our foreign policy on Russian sanctions at a time he knew Russia was attacking us.

We are now being told that *Mueller never investigated* the collusion allegation Trump was facing—on a money-for-sanctions-relief quid pro quo—and *instead* investigated the allegation *as Trump saw it*, which was whether he struck an agreement with the IRA or Russian hackers.

For two years, as Trump's team defined the collusion allegation against him *falsely*—saying he'd been accused of striking a secret accord with the Internet Research Agency and/or Russian hackers before-the-fact—his critics shrugged and said, "Yeah, we're not looking at that."

On this collusion allegation no one was even making against Trump, the Special Counsel *didn't* find "no evidence"—which I would've been fine with, as I've never accused Trump of that type of collusion—he actually just found he didn't have 90%+ proof of that form of collusion.

This isn't backpedaling: *anyone* who reads this feed—or anyone else researching and reporting on collusion—will *know* that we did *not* accuse Trump of striking a *secret deal with the IRA or Russian hackers before-the-fact*, and that "collusion" has *never* been about that.

So we alleged Obstruction—and people *ineligible to make a decision on that issue* made the decision. We alleged collusive activity—and it appears the activity we alleged was *never investigated*. *That* is how critics of Trump should be seeing what has just happened. *That*.

What will happen now is that Trump will say that Mueller found no Obstruction—false, because Mueller made no conclusion on that (though he was supposed to). Trump will then say that Mueller found no *collusion*, and *that* will be wrong on *two* separate and distinct grounds.

The *first* way in which Trump's coming statement will be wrong on collusion is that the collusion he was actually *accused* of wasn't fully investigated—or perhaps not investigated at all. The *second* issue is, Mueller said he "didn't exonerate" Trump as to *any* collusion.
American discourse surrounding Mueller's investigation is at this moment in *dire* danger—because most in the media don't understand either point I've made here: that a proper Obstruction finding *was never made*, and that a full collusion investigation *was never conducted*.

So what does it all mean? Well, as the Obstruction determination was *not* made by Mueller—and was improperly made by Barr and Rosenstein—it now falls to Congress to review the underlying evidence and, if House Judiciary finds it appropriate, initiate impeachment proceedings.

As to collusion, 1) it continues to be *properly* investigated—not in the narrow way Trump demanded and apparently Mueller's team acceded to—in *multiple other federal jurisdictions*; 2) the inability to indict on the *investigated* collusion is *not* an inability to impeach.

So what's my reaction to today's news? Well, I thought there was *no* evidence Trump colluded *via secret agreement with the IRA or Russian hackers*—I always said that—so *now* I want to know why Mueller said he wasn't able to "exonerate" Trump on that allegation. I mean—wow.

As to the collusion allegations never investigated—as opposed to the ones Trump self-servingly *himself* raised only because he knew he wasn't guilty of *those*—my feeling is that there are now *19 federal jurisdictions* working on Trump probes that could resolve that issue.

Moreover, some of those jurisdictions being Congressional, and many working on cases involving people never interviewed by the SCO face-to-face—Trump, Trump Jr., Prince, Ivanka, and so many others—I feel like we're only at the *beginning* of the real collusion investigation.

On Obstruction, once Congress gets all Mueller's hard evidence, they should proceed with impeachment (or at worst, wait for other federal prosecutors to finish their collusion investigations). Why? Because if the *public evidence* made a prima face case—it did—so did Mueller.

I ask people to retweet this thread. Misinformation spreads fast—the nation already misunderstands what happened today, as media wrongly uses terms like "exoneration," "vindication," and "collusion." As for fellow lawyers? Come at me if you disagree with anything I said. /end

PS/ As ever, my concern about the media *isn't* an accusation of bad faith: I think people are rushing—and don't understand certain things they *need* to understand to do their jobs well tonight, like *what the collusion allegation actually was*—so threads like this are critical.

PS2/ That the first "defense" to the Mueller Report from Team Trump is Giuliani saying you can't commit Obstruction of Justice if there's no (beyond-a-reasonable-doubt-proof-level) crime—a *flatly false legal statement no attorney agrees with*—tells you that they have *concerns*.

PS3/ The *second* defense—a Trump tweet, "No obstruction. No collusion. Total and complete exoneration!"—is also completely false, which *again* should communicate to everyone that Team Trump is terrified about not just the truth of the Report but even the truth of Barr's letter.

PS4/ For two years, I said we needed a *clear* definition of "collusion" or we would pay the price down the line, and now here we are—with Mueller narrowly defining collusion not just as "conspiracy" but only *one narrow breed* of conspiracy (with the IRA and/or Russian hackers).

PS5/ Mueller wasn't even *consulted* on Barr's letter, as we'd been promised he would. Folks, Trump is now on TV saying "no collusion with Russia"—again, a far broader issue than Mueller conducted—and if people of sense don't talk back publicly *now*, we will all regret it later.

NOTE2/ No fellow attorneys are questioning this thread thus far—either on the law or the facts of the collusion investigation as we know it to exist. On Obstruction, what I've expressed here is already becoming key legal analysts' view; on collusion, I hear no contradictions yet.

NOTE3/ Some folks add, rightly, that Mueller only found no beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence of collusion with the Russian "government"—the IRA, GRU officials, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs—none of whom Trump was ever accused of colluding with. Rep. Heck just said this on CNN.

NOTE4/ Barr appears to have *avoided* any reference to Team Trump collusion with Russian foreign nationals and Kremlin cutouts like Agalarov, Rozov, Vekselberg, Deripaska, Firtash, Sater, Kilimnik, Boyarkin, Akhmetshin, and *so many others* who are *not* "the Russian government."

NOTE5/ We have an *indication* from today's "Barr Summary"—but we'll need to see the Mueller Report—that the Barr Summary mentioned the "Russian government" only because Mueller's focus was on the IRA and GRU alone, which again is *not* what Trump stood accused of collusion-wise.

DEFINITIONS/ If I were CNN and someone came on my air today and said there's no "evidence" of collusion because Mueller didn't *indict* someone for Conspiracy, that'd be their last appearance. If you don't know what "evidence" is or what "standard of proof" means, don't go on TV.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Res Ipsa »

canpakes wrote:
There will be a reckoning.


Well, I don’t think anyone would have expected that Trump would try to be the grownup in the room on any occasion, let alone now. So let’s see him double down on the childish snowflake persecution rants. That’s what Makes America Great.


The hysterics on the right appear to forget that Mueller's investigation has been, at all times, under control of members of the Republican Party. Despite the most vicious, partisan attack on a criminal investigation I've ever witnessed, Mueller's and their team appear to have done their jobs. And now, across the far right, people are calling for politically motivated criminal prosecutions of those that conducted the investigation. Despite two years of zealous attempts to cobble together a case that the investigation was a conspiratorial witch hunt, they've come up with zero evidence. Still, they want to abuse governmental power as a punishment for those who they have designated as their enemies.

Just a refresher on the purpose of the investigation: To investigate the existence and extent of Russian attempts to interfere with the 2016 election and whether any Americans, including the Trump campaign, were involved. Trump was never the main target of the investigation, although in his typical narcissistic style, he made it all about him. During the first part of the investigation, Mueller and his team focussed on the interference itself for a substantial period of time, resulting in the two indictments filed against Russians. That's what's Mueller was supposed to do, and from the indictments themselves, it looks to me like he did what he was supposed to. That's critical information, as we can't protect against interference if we don't know how it is happening.

As for members of the Trump campaign, and assuming that Barr's description of Mueller's report is accurate, the report means that Mueller did not find enough evidence to establish conspiracy with the Russians beyond a reasonable doubt. Such a conclusion is completely consistent with it being more likely than not that there was such a conspiracy. The two standards of evidence are very different. As a citizen or a voter, I'm much more interested in what the evidence shows more probably than not. And I can't get that without being able to look at the full report.

On the issue of obstruction, apparently Mueller thinks that the question of whether there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt is so close that he was unwilling to make a recommendation. If it's that close, it certainly means that Mueller concluded it was more likely than not that Trump committed obstruction of justice. To claim this as an "exoneration" requires a pretty severe case of political myopia.

"Not a criminal" is the least we should expect of elected representatives.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Water Dog
_Emeritus
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Water Dog »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:What, exactly, from his Twitter feed did you find compelling? There just seems to be a bunch of statements that he agrees with AG Barr's summary. Did anyone expect Barr to come out with anything different?

What, seriously, the F, are you even talking about?

Hey, you want to keep going to church for the social aspect? I saw a post on an exmo Facebook group the other day saying this same thing. Woman was considering going back cause she's just so lonely and misses the community. Hey, cool. Enough with the tinfoil. The whole thing is infuriating and yet also so hilarious. Trump will for sure win in 20. Who wants to put money down? All this crazy has made it impossible to defeat him.

Kevin Graham wrote:Seth Abramson tweetstorm


Hahahahahaha. He forgot one thing, "buy my book." But I guess he figures it's already advertised well enough in the header and side bar. Oh crap, I guess he should have gotten it published sooner. That sucks. ROFLMAO
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: MUELLER REPORT JUST DROPPED

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »



I see WD is just going to link and run today... :/

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Post Reply