The Great Politics Thread (Split from Campaign Thread)

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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:
I trusted my government to provide me with facts. They related the concern of SMALLPOX (recall that one? woop! That was fun!), biological and chemical warfare. YOU said there wasn't hysteria! I'm relaying what the public was told that intensified that hysteria. Now I'm not saying the administration intentionally lied to the American public. My point was that during this fear and hysteria the case was made that it was VITAL to invade Iraq to save us from the imminent assault.



False. No such claim was ever made.


You're saying our government did not discuss that smallpox might have been genetically engineered by Iraq? You are claiming that our government did not tell people to go buy duct tape and plastic sheets to prepare themselves for possible chemical warfare? You claim there was no mention of a remote controlled light weight drone plane that would hiss gases on our country? I think you weren't paying very good attention, Coggies!

I AM LOSING MY PATIENCE WITH YOU! YOU ARE WRONG! AGAIN! AND AGAIN!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2002/05/29/ ... r_ed3_.php


Germ warfare : Vaccinate against smallpox before attacking Iraq
By Leonard R. Spector
Published: WEDNESDAY, MAY 29, 2002

WASHINGTON: As Pentagon officials ponder invasion plans for Iraq, U.S. public health officials are debating an issue whose outcome could make such an invasion politically impossible. It is the question of whether to launch a wide-scale vaccination program in the United States against smallpox — historically one of the most devastating diseases known to humanity.

The reason: U.S. government planners believe that the principal threat to America from smallpox is not the danger posed by some future terrorist organization, but by Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. If inoculations are widely administered in advance of an actual outbreak of the disease, even on a voluntary basis, they would become "the shots heard around the world." Other countries would urgently seek to follow America's lead and some would feel highly vulnerable until they had done so.


Admit it, please? Just ONCE Coggins. Admit you're wrong and you were just schooled by a lady 20 years your junior. Just once, for me, please?

The claim was made that Saddam needed to be removed from power before he became an imminent threat. You're claim is mainstream media mythology disseminated by the usual suspects. President Bush never even used the term in making his case for the War. Here is the relevant part of his 2003 State of the Union Speech:


Uh... Coggins. I understand THAT. What was the THREAT YOU DOFUS? THE THREAT WAS CHEMICAL, BIOLOGICAL, AND WMD and we were told THIS AND THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WAS PANICKY!

God, I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Holy hell Coggins! I SAID THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WAS TOLD HE WAS A THREAT! The American public was panicky! THIS IS WHY THERE WAS SUPPORT TO INVADE IRAQ!
If you've got a degree in the relevant area Moniker, don't you think you should be above making mistakes such as this? You clearly have gotten virtually all of your knowledge of this issue from the mainstream pop media, and have not seriously pursued the issue across other relevant and competent points of view from other substantive sources.



What statement do you take issue with you? Cite my statement and show me where I mistate something, please? You're just copy and pasting things that back up PRECISELY WHAT I SAID! Mainstream pop media? YOU FRICKIN DOFUS! I subscribe to a myriad of conservative and progressive journals and gobble them up. I also follow various websites on the net that are fringe in nature to see the latest political trends that may be coming down the pipe.

Again, YOU TELL ME WHAT STATEMENT I MADE WHICH IS FALSE!

knock! Knock! Helllooooo? Did I say that? Nope. I say during this state of fear that the case was made to invade Iraq. Get it?


History lesson 101: America went into Afghanistan on Oct. 7, 2001 in direct response to the 9/11 attacks. Iraq was not invaded until March 20, 2003. Bush's State of the Union speech, which laid out the case for war to the general public, was made in January of 2003, over two years after the Twin Towers attacks, and long after any alleged "hysteria" had long returned to working toward retirement at the country club and worrying about whose next to get voted off of the island.
[/quote]

THE HYSTERIA WAS CREATED BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD THERE WOULD BE ANOTHER ATTACK ON OUR SHORES YOU DOFUS!! AND THANK YOU FOR COPY AND PASTING THAT ABOVE WHICH REITERATES MY POINT!!!!!


I said:

A perfectly reasonable claim at the time, considering what the intelligence was saying about him. But, uh...Moniker...in point of fact, we attacked Afghanistan, not Iraq.



Moniker retorts:

We didn't invade Iraq? Holy fricken hell -- I've been tripping for the last few years. This explains soooo much!


Read my frickin' posts Moniker. Of course we invaded Iraq...over two years after 9/11. I'm pretty sure you don't have reading comprehension problems, so there's no need to try to score points in this manner.


You are really pissing me off Coggins. I WAS TALKING ABOUT INVADING IRAQ! THE SMALLPOX THREAT WAS IRAQ RELATED! THE CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL THREAT WAS LINKED TO IRAQ BY THE ADMINISTRATION! I SAID THE PUBLIC WAS HYSTERICAL AND IN A STATE OF FEAR AFTER 9-11! THIS WAS WHY WE WERE CONCERNED WITH MORE ATTACKS ON OUR SOIL! There are dots Coggins -- can you try to keep up and link them?

You usually don't irritate me so much -- just something about YOU lecturing me on political theory, the time line, and you then sort of leaving off and not retorting many of my points bugs the hell out of me!
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

You guys are wasting your time. Coggins, time and time again, links to sites such as "thefrontpage," without pulling up any actual quotes at all (this is why I have said that he would likely fail his introductory college writing class)


I've been given to posting not only quotes, but entire essays here, which, when I do, most of the public educated liberals such as yourself, who are not used to doing much deep reading or varied research on a subject, then say involves too much reading. Hence, go to the link and read it at the source for yourself. Or, are you afraid, in going to a web page like Frontpagemag, which is a clearinghouse for both conservative and leftist thought, and features essays by scholars, academics, journalists and pundits, as well as extensive debates between leading conservative and leftist intellectuals, that you might see things that will begin the unraveling of your house-of-cards world view?

Don't bother answering Scratch, because I know you've never been there and actually delved into it, and you probably, like Beastie, never will.


and then says he's "just warming up." Will he ever actually be "performance ready"?


Go read Stephan Hays's entire book, The Connection. Then you'll be ready.

The Connection

From the June 7, 2004 issue: Not so long ago, the ties between Iraq and al Qaeda were conventional wisdom. The conventional wisdom was right.

by Stephen F. Hayes
06/07/2004, Volume 009, Issue 37


"THE PRESIDENT CONVINCED THE COUNTRY with a mixture of documents that turned out to be forged and blatantly false assertions that Saddam was in league with al Qaeda," claimed former Vice President Al Gore last Wednesday.

"There's absolutely no evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda, ever," declared Richard Clarke, former counterterrorism official under George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, in an interview on March 21, 2004.

The editor of the Los Angeles Times labeled as "myth" the claim that links between Iraq and al Qaeda had been proved. A recent dispatch from Reuters simply asserted, "There is no link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda." 60 Minutes anchor Lesley Stahl was equally certain: "There was no connection."

And on it goes. This conventional wisdom--that our two most determined enemies were not in league, now or ever--is comforting. It is also wrong.

In late February 2004, Christopher Carney made an astonishing discovery. Carney, a political science professor from Pennsylvania on leave to work at the Pentagon, was poring over a list of officers in Saddam Hussein's much-feared security force, the Fedayeen Saddam. One name stood out: Lieutenant Colonel Ahmed Hikmat Shakir. The name was not spelled exactly as Carney had seen it before, but such discrepancies are common. Having studied the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda for 18 months, he immediately recognized the potential significance of his find. According to a report last week in the Wall Street Journal, Shakir appears on three different lists of Fedayeen officers.

An Iraqi of that name, Carney knew, had been present at an al Qaeda summit in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, on January 5-8, 2000. U.S. intelligence officials believe this was a chief planning meeting for the September 11 attacks. Shakir had been nominally employed as a "greeter" by Malaysian Airlines, a job he told associates he had gotten through a contact at the Iraqi embassy. More curious, Shakir's Iraqi embassy contact controlled his schedule, telling him when to show up for work and when to take a day off.

A greeter typically meets VIPs upon arrival and accompanies them through the sometimes onerous procedures of foreign travel. Shakir was instructed to work on January 5, 2000, and on that day, he escorted one Khalid al Mihdhar from his plane to a waiting car. Rather than bid his guest farewell at that point, as a greeter typically would have, Shakir climbed into the car with al Mihdhar and accompanied him to the Kuala Lumpur condominium of Yazid Sufaat, the American-born al Qaeda terrorist who hosted the planning meeting.

The meeting lasted for three days. Khalid al Mihdhar departed Kuala Lumpur for Bangkok and eventually Los Angeles. Twenty months later, he was aboard American Airlines Flight 77 when it plunged into the Pentagon at 9:38 A.M. on September 11. So were Nawaf al Hazmi and his younger brother, Salem, both of whom were also present at the Kuala Lumpur meeting.

Six days after September 11, Shakir was captured in Doha, Qatar. He had in his possession contact information for several senior al Qaeda terrorists: Zahid Sheikh Mohammed, brother of September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; Musab Yasin, brother of Abdul Rahman Yasin, the Iraqi who helped mix the chemicals for the first World Trade Center attack and was given safe haven upon his return to Baghdad; and Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, otherwise known as Abu Hajer al Iraqi, described by one top al Qaeda detainee as Osama bin Laden's "best friend."

Despite all of this, Shakir was released. On October 21, 2001, he boarded a plane for Baghdad, via Amman, Jordan. He never made the connection. Shakir was detained by Jordanian intelligence. Immediately following his capture, according to U.S. officials familiar with the intelligence on Shakir, the Iraqi government began exerting pressure on the Jordanians to release him. Some U.S. intelligence officials--primarily at the CIA--believed that Iraq's demand for Shakir's release was pro forma, no different from the requests governments regularly make on behalf of citizens detained by foreign governments. But others, pointing to the flurry of phone calls and personal appeals from the Iraqi government to the Jordanians, disagreed. This panicked reaction, they said, reflected an interest in Shakir at the highest levels of Saddam Hussein's regime.

CIA officials who interviewed Shakir in Jordan reported that he was generally uncooperative. But even in refusing to talk, he provided some important information: The interrogators concluded that his evasive answers reflected counterinterrogation techniques so sophisticated that he had probably learned them from a government intelligence service. Shakir's Iraqi nationality, his contacts with the Iraqi embassy in Malaysia, the keen interest of Baghdad in his case, and now the appearance of his name on the rolls of Fedayeen officers--all this makes the Iraqi intelligence service the most likely source of his training.

The Jordanians, convinced that Shakir worked for Iraqi intelligence, went to the CIA with a bold proposal: Let's flip him. That is, the Jordanians would allow Shakir to return to Iraq on condition that he agree to report back on the activities of Iraqi intelligence. And, in one of the most egregious mistakes by U.S. intelligence after September 11, the CIA agreed to Shakir's release. He posted a modest bail and returned to Iraq.

He hasn't been heard from since.

The Shakir story is perhaps the government's strongest indication that Saddam and al Qaeda may have worked together on September 11. It is far from conclusive; conceivably there were two Ahmed Hikmat Shakirs. And in itself, the evidence does not show that Saddam Hussein personally had foreknowledge of the attacks. Still--like the long, on-again-off-again relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda--it cannot be dismissed.

THERE WAS A TIME not long ago when the conventional wisdom skewed heavily toward a Saddam-al Qaeda links. In 1998 and early 1999, the Iraq-al Qaeda connection was widely reported in the American and international media. Former intelligence officers and government officials speculated about the relationship and its dangerous implications for the world. The information in the news reports came from foreign and domestic intelligence services. It was featured in mainstream media outlets including international wire services, prominent newsweeklies, and network radio and television broadcasts.

Newsweek magazine ran an article in its January 11, 1999, issue headed "Saddam + Bin Laden?" "Here's what is known so far," it read:

Saddam Hussein, who has a long record of supporting terrorism, is trying to rebuild his intelligence network overseas--assets that would allow him to establish a terrorism network. U.S. sources say he is reaching out to Islamic terrorists, including some who may be linked to Osama bin Laden, the wealthy Saudi exile accused of masterminding the bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa last summer.

Four days later, on January 15, 1999, ABC News reported that three intelligence agencies believed that Saddam had offered asylum to bin Laden:

Intelligence sources say bin Laden's long relationship with the Iraqis began as he helped Sudan's fundamentalist government in their efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction. . . . ABC News has learned that in December, an Iraqi intelligence chief named Faruq Hijazi, now Iraq's ambassador to Turkey, made a secret trip to Afghanistan to meet with bin Laden. Three intelligence agencies tell ABC News they cannot be certain what was discussed, but almost certainly, they say, bin Laden has been told he would be welcome in Baghdad.

NPR reporter Mike Shuster interviewed Vincent Cannistraro, former head of the CIA's counterterrorism center, and offered this report:

Iraq's contacts with bin Laden go back some years, to at least 1994, when, according to one U.S. government source, Hijazi met him when bin Laden lived in Sudan. According to Cannistraro, Iraq invited bin Laden to live in Baghdad to be nearer to potential targets of terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. . . . Some experts believe bin Laden might be tempted to live in Iraq because of his reported desire to obtain chemical or biological weapons. CIA Director George Tenet referred to that in recent testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee when he said bin Laden was planning additional attacks on American targets.

By mid-February 1999, journalists did not even feel the need to qualify these claims of an Iraq-al Qaeda relationship. An Associated Press dispatch that ran in the Washington Post ended this way: "The Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against Western powers."

Where did journalists get the idea that Saddam and bin Laden might be coordinating efforts? Among other places, from high-ranking Clinton administration officials.

In the spring of 1998--well before the U.S. embassy bombings in East Africa--the Clinton administration indicted Osama bin Laden. The indictment, unsealed a few months later, prominently cited al Qaeda's agreement to collaborate with Iraq on weapons of mass destruction. The Clinton Justice Department had been concerned about negative public reaction to its potentially capturing bin Laden without "a vehicle for extradition," official paperwork charging him with a crime. It was "not an afterthought" to include the al Qaeda-Iraq connection in the indictment, says an official familiar with the deliberations. "It couldn't have gotten into the indictment unless someone was willing to testify to it under oath." The Clinton administration's indictment read unequivocally:

Al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.

On August 7, 1998, al Qaeda terrorists struck almost simultaneously at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The blasts killed 257 people--including 12 Americans--and wounded nearly 5,000. The Clinton administration determined within five days that al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks and moved swiftly to retaliate. One of the targets would be in Afghanistan. But the Clinton national security team wanted to strike hard simultaneously, much as the terrorists had. "The decision to go to [Sudan] was an add-on," says a senior intelligence officer involved in the targeting. "They wanted a dual strike."

A small group of Clinton administration officials, led by CIA director George Tenet and national security adviser Sandy Berger, reviewed a number of al Qaeda-linked targets in Sudan. Although bin Laden had left the African nation two years earlier, U.S. officials believed that he was still deeply involved in the Sudanese government-run Military Industrial Corporation (MIC).

The United States retaliated on August 20, 1998, striking al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and the al Shifa pharmaceutical plant outside Khartoum. "Let me be very clear about this," said President Bill Clinton, addressing the nation after the strikes. "There is no question in my mind that the Sudanese factory was producing chemicals that are used--and can be used--in VX gas. This was a plant that was producing chemical warfare-related weapons, and we have physical evidence of that."

The physical evidence was a soil sample containing EMPTA, a precursor for VX nerve gas. Almost immediately, the decision to strike at al Shifa aroused controversy. U.S. officials expressed skepticism that the plant produced pharmaceuticals at all, but reporters on the ground in Sudan found aspirin bottles and a variety of other indications that the plant had, in fact, manufactured drugs. For journalists and many at the CIA, the case was hardly clear-cut. For one thing, the soil sample was collected from outside the plant's front gate, not within the grounds, and an internal CIA memo issued a month before the attacks had recommended gathering additional soil samples from the site before reaching any conclusions. "It caused a lot of heartburn at the agency," recalls a former top intelligence official.

The Clinton administration sought to dispel doubts about the targeting and, on August 24, 1998, made available a "senior intelligence official" to brief reporters on background. The briefer cited "strong ties between the plant and Iraq" as one of the justifications for attacking it. The next day, undersecretary of state for political affairs Thomas Pickering briefed reporters at the National Press Club. Pickering explained that the intelligence community had been monitoring the plant for "at least two years," and that the evidence was "quite clear on contacts between Sudan and Iraq." In all, at least six top Clinton administration officials have defended on the record the strikes in Sudan by citing a link to Iraq.

The Iraqis, of course, denied any involvement. "The Clinton government has fabricated yet another lie to the effect that Iraq had helped Sudan produce this chemical weapon," declared the political editor of Radio Iraq. Still, even as Iraq denied helping Sudan and al Qaeda with weapons of mass destruction, the regime lauded Osama bin Laden. On August 27, 1998, 20 days after al Qaeda attacked the U.S. embassies in Africa, Babel, the government newspaper run by Saddam's son Uday Hussein, published an editorial proclaiming bin Laden "an Arab and Islamic hero."

Five months later, the same Richard Clarke who would one day claim that there was "absolutely no evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda, ever," told the Washington Post that the U.S. government was "sure" that Iraq was behind the production of the chemical weapons precursor at the al Shifa plant. "Clarke said U.S. intelligence does not know how much of the substance was produced at al Shifa or what happened to it," wrote Post reporter Vernon Loeb, in an article published January 23, 1999. "But he said that intelligence exists linking bin Laden to al Shifa's current and past operators, the Iraqi nerve gas experts, and the National Islamic Front in Sudan."

Later in 1999, the Congressional Research Service published a report on the psychology of terrorism. The report created a stir in May 2002 when critics of President Bush cited it to suggest that his administration should have given more thought to suicide hijackings. On page 7 of the 178-page document was a passage about a possible al Qaeda attack on Washington, D.C., that "could take several forms." In one scenario, "suicide bombers belonging to al Qaeda's Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives (C-4 and semtex) into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency, or the White House."

A network anchor wondered if it was possible that the White House had somehow missed the report. A senator cited it in calling for an investigation into the 9/11 attacks. A journalist read excerpts to the secretary of defense and raised a familiar question: "What did you know and when did you know it?"

But another passage of the same report has gone largely unnoticed. Two paragraphs before, also on page 7, is this: "If Iraq's Saddam Hussein decide[s] to use terrorists to attack the continental United States [he] would likely turn to bin Laden's al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is among the Islamic groups recruiting increasingly skilled professionals," including "Iraqi chemical weapons experts and others capable of helping to develop WMD. Al Qaeda poses the most serious terrorist threat to U.S. security interests, for al Qaeda's well-trained terrorists are engaged in a terrorist jihad against U.S. interests worldwide."

CIA director George Tenet echoed these sentiments in a letter to Congress on October 7, 2002:

--Our understanding of the relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda is evolving and is based on sources of varying reliability. Some of the information we have received comes from detainees, including some of high rank.

--We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda going back a decade.

--Credible information indicates that Iraq and Al Qaeda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal nonaggression.

--Since Operation Enduring Freedom, we have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of Al Qaeda members, including some that have been in Baghdad.

--We have credible reporting that Al Qaeda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire W.M.D. capabilities. The reporting also stated that Iraq has provided training to Al Qaeda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs.

--Iraq's increasing support to extremist Palestinians coupled with growing indications of relationship with Al Qaeda suggest that Baghdad's links to terrorists will increase, even absent U.S. military action.

Tenet has never backed away from these assessments. Senator Mark Dayton, a Democrat from Minnesota, challenged him on the Iraq-al Qaeda connection in an exchange before the Senate Armed Services Committee on March 9, 2004. Tenet reiterated his judgment that there had been numerous "contacts" between Iraq and al Qaeda, and that in the days before the war the Iraqi regime had provided "training and safe haven" to al Qaeda associates, including Abu Musab al Zarqawi. What the U.S. intelligence community could not claim was that the Iraqi regime had "command and control" over al Qaeda terrorists. Still, said Tenet, "it was inconceivable to me that Zarqawi and two dozen [Egyptian Islamic Jihad] operatives could be operating in Baghdad without Iraq knowing."

SO WHAT should Washington do now? The first thing the Bush administration should do is create a team of intelligence experts--or preferably competing teams, each composed of terrorism experts and forensic investigators--to explore the connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. For more than a year, the 1,400-member Iraq Survey Group has investigated the nature and scope of Iraq's program to manufacture weapons of mass destruction. At various times in its brief history, a small subgroup of ISG investigators (never more than 15 people) has looked into Iraqi connections with al Qaeda. This is not enough.

Despite the lack of resources devoted to Iraq-al Qaeda connections, the Iraq Survey Group has obtained some interesting new information. In the spring of 1992, according to Iraqi Intelligence documents obtained by the ISG after the war, Osama bin Laden met with Iraqi Intelligence officials in Syria. A second document, this one captured by the Iraqi National Congress and authenticated by the Defense Intelligence Agency, then listed bin Laden as an Iraqi Intelligence "asset" who "is in good relationship with our section in Syria." A third Iraqi Intelligence document, this one an undated internal memo, discusses strategy for an upcoming meeting between Iraqi Intelligence, bin Laden, and a representative of the Taliban. On the agenda: "attacking American targets." This seems significant.

A second critical step would be to declassify as much of the Iraq-al Qaeda intelligence as possible. Those skeptical of any connection claim that any evidence of a relationship must have been "cherry picked" from much larger piles of existing intelligence that makes these Iraq-al Qaeda links less compelling. Let's see it all, or as much of it as can be disclosed without compromising sources and methods.

Among the most important items to be declassified: the Iraq Survey Group documents discussed above; any and all reporting and documentation--including photographs--pertaining to Ahmed Hikmat Shakir, the Iraqi and alleged Saddam Fedayeen officer present at the September 11 planning meeting; interview transcripts with top Iraqi intelligence officers, al Qaeda terrorists, and leaders of al Qaeda affiliate Ansar al Islam; documents recovered in postwar Iraq indicating that Abdul Rahman Yasin, the Iraqi who has admitted mixing the chemicals for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, was given safe haven and financial support by the Iraqi regime upon returning to Baghdad two weeks after the attack; any and all reporting and documentation--including photographs--related to Mohammed Atta's visits to Prague; portions of the debriefings of Faruq Hijazi, former deputy director of Iraqi intelligence, who met personally with bin Laden at least twice, and an evaluation of his credibility.

It is of course important for the Bush administration and CIA director George Tenet to back up their assertions of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection. Similarly, declassifying intelligence from the 1990s might shed light on why top Clinton officials were adamant about an Iraq-al Qaeda connection in Sudan and why the Clinton Justice Department included the Iraq-al Qaeda relationship in its 1998 indictment of Osama bin Laden. More specifically, what intelligence did Richard Clarke see that allowed him to tell the Washington Post that the U.S. government was "sure" Iraq had provided a chemical weapons precursor to the al Qaeda-linked al Shifa facility in Sudan? What would compel former secretary of defense William Cohen to tell the September 11 Commission, under oath, that an executive from the al Qaeda-linked plant "traveled to Baghdad to meet with the father of the VX [nerve gas] program"? And why did Thomas Pickering, the undersecretary of state for political affairs, tell reporters, "We see evidence that we think is quite clear on contacts between Sudan and Iraq. In fact, al Shifa officials, early in the company's history, we believe were in touch with Iraqi individuals associated with Iraq's VX program"? Other Clinton administration figures, including a "senior intelligence official" who briefed reporters on background, cited telephone intercepts between a plant manager and Emad al Ani, the father of Iraq's chemical weapons program.

We have seen important elements of the pre-September 11 intelligence available to the Bush administration; it's time for the American public to see more of the intelligence on Iraq and al Qaeda from the 1990s, especially the reporting about the August 1998 attacks in Kenya and Tanzania and the U.S. counterstrikes two weeks later.

Until this material is declassified, there will be gaps in our knowledge. Indeed, even after the full record is made public, some uncertainties will no doubt remain.

The connection between Saddam and al Qaeda isn't one of them.

Stephen F. Hayes is a staff writer at The Weekly Standard. Parts of this article are drawn from his new book, The Connection: How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein has Endangered America (HarperCollins).



You see, its this kind of investigative journalism, from outside the information gatekeepers at CBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, CNBC, CNN, The Washington Post, the New York Times ad nauseum, that really pulls the chains of individuals like Beastie and yourself. What do we see here? We see that, interestingly enough, before George Bush became President and the Republicans took over Congress, even the mainstream media had no trouble reporting the general objective facts and evidence of the matter. What, I wonder, happened to change the media's template to the now familiar "no connection" mantra. What do you think Scratch?


Cause I'm still waiting. Meanwhile, I'm sure we can all go on weeping about his plight---I.e., the fact that he isn't respected or apparently even liked by his Mopologetic peers. He is so caustic and whacked out that even the MADites want nothing to do with him. Maybe he will one day wake up to these various flaws in his character. One can only hope.


You will be outed one day for who and what you are Scratch. Its only a matter of time.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins7 wrote:

Quote:
I trusted my government to provide me with facts. They related the concern of SMALLPOX (recall that one? woop! That was fun!), biological and chemical warfare. YOU said there wasn't hysteria! I'm relaying what the public was told that intensified that hysteria. Now I'm not saying the administration intentionally lied to the American public. My point was that during this fear and hysteria the case was made that it was VITAL to invade Iraq to save us from the imminent assault.




False. No such claim was ever made.




You're saying our government did not discuss that smallpox might have been genetically engineered by Iraq? You are claiming that our government did not tell people to go buy duct tape and plastic sheets to prepare themselves for possible chemical warfare? You claim there was no mention of a remote controlled light weight drone plane that would hiss gases on our country? I think you weren't paying very good attention, Coggies!

I AM LOSING MY PATIENCE WITH YOU! YOU ARE WRONG! AGAIN! AND AGAIN!


OK, so you do have reading comprehension problems. My mistake. Here is what you said:

My point was that during this fear and hysteria the case was made that it was VITAL to invade Iraq to save us from the imminent assault.


That is what I was responding to. And, not to put too fine a point on it, you as yet, except for reporting your own subjective perceptions of the matter, provided not a shred of evidence there was any such thing as a national 'hysteria" after 9/11, and the idea that there was such a phenomena underway some two years after 9/11 is little more than preposterous.



Admit it, please? Just ONCE Coggins. Admit you're wrong and you were just schooled by a lady 20 years your junior. Just once, for me, please?


Wrong about what? Yes there was fear, and there should have been. Hysteria? Show me the historical evidence. You're claim that it was during a period of fear and hysteria a case was made to invade Iraq is ahistorical. That case was made two full years after 9/11, when precious little fear was even in evidence.


Again, YOU TELL ME WHAT STATEMENT I MADE WHICH IS FALSE!



Both these statements, as a matter of history, are false. The case was not made during any alleged period of national "hysteria", let alone fear, and the case was never made on the basis of "imminent threat".



History lesson 101: America went into Afghanistan on Oct. 7, 2001 in direct response to the 9/11 attacks. Iraq was not invaded until March 20, 2003. Bush's State of the Union speech, which laid out the case for war to the general public, was made in January of 2003, over two years after the Twin Towers attacks, and long after any alleged "hysteria" had long returned to working toward retirement at the country club and worrying about whose next to get voted off of the island.


THE HYSTERIA WAS CREATED BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD THERE WOULD BE ANOTHER ATTACK ON OUR SHORES YOU DOFUS!! AND THANK YOU FOR COPY AND PASTING THAT ABOVE WHICH REITERATES MY POINT!!!!!



Once you come up with some historical evidence that any such "hysteria" existed, outside of fear and serious concern, then you'll have a point here. And, again, how do you know other attacks were not planned? Further, even if they were not, the case for Iraq was not made until two years after 9/11, long after most of the country had essentially moved on as if nothing had happened.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Before I even read what you've said to me and if I decide to reply I want to say something personally to you.

Coggins, there are times when winning is important. There are other times that engaging in dialogue can broaden perspectives and can illuminate.

When I was a young lady in my courses I had to debate often. I recall the first time I realized I had a critical flaw in my argument. When I recognized this I was waiting for my opponent to spring it on me. Dreading the moment where I would essentially lose and have to eat crow. That moment never came. Yet, I knew! That bothered me immensely. Winning at what price? Why?

To me, there is no point in winning if it is with disingenuity. Now, I'm not saying you're disingenuous -- what I am suggesting is that all of us have a limited knowledge and there are times we should and can concede points and learn from the experience. You've irritated me a bit in this thread because it evolved into a history lesson and lost the essential reason I piped up in the first place. Ask yourself this Coggins; if every time you're confronted with something that challenges your assumptions could you actually consider the point rather than desperately seeking Google to find something to buttress your own? Would you take something away from that? Would you take anything away from that experience? It's okay to be wrong. I am ALL THE TIME! Often! Hell, I don't know squat. Yet, when I am given the opportunity to learn I greedily accept it and attempt to shift my schema to incorporate that new knowledge to round out my notions of the world we live in. Is it possible that you could do the same?

Now, I'm going to read your reply. Eek!

Coggins7 wrote:
Moniker wrote:

Quote:
I trusted my government to provide me with facts. They related the concern of SMALLPOX (recall that one? woop! That was fun!), biological and chemical warfare. YOU said there wasn't hysteria! I'm relaying what the public was told that intensified that hysteria. Now I'm not saying the administration intentionally lied to the American public. My point was that during this fear and hysteria the case was made that it was VITAL to invade Iraq to save us from the imminent assault.




False. No such claim was ever made.




You're saying our government did not discuss that smallpox might have been genetically engineered by Iraq? You are claiming that our government did not tell people to go buy duct tape and plastic sheets to prepare themselves for possible chemical warfare? You claim there was no mention of a remote controlled light weight drone plane that would hiss gases on our country? I think you weren't paying very good attention, Coggies!

I AM LOSING MY PATIENCE WITH YOU! YOU ARE WRONG! AGAIN! AND AGAIN!


OK, so you do have reading comprehension problems. My mistake. Here is what you said:


Coggins! Oh, I hate to say it but at this point I sort of pity you. Coggins, you stated that our administration did not tell us there was a possibility of chemical attack, biological, or anything else. I provided proof of this for you and you ignore it. Why? Why? Why? I don't understand you Coggins. And I'm sitting here with a sad little half way pout/frown on my face. I don't know what to do, really. Can you reply to my above statements regarding the administration telling the public there were threats? Please?
My point was that during this fear and hysteria the case was made that it was VITAL to invade Iraq to save us from the imminent assault.


That is what I was responding to. And, not to put too fine a point on it, you as yet, except for reporting your own subjective perceptions of the matter, provided not a shred of evidence there was any such thing as a national 'hysteria" after 9/11, and the idea that there was such a phenomena underway some two years after 9/11 is little more than preposterous.


What were you responding to precisely? This entire discussion revolves about Iraq. There was a state of fear after 9-11. The fear was racheted up again before to make a case to invade Iraq. ~~still have sad little look on my face~~

What do you describe hysteria as Coggins? People were afraid to fly. People were on alert. People were freaked out with anything that was white and powdery. When the American public were informed to go buy duct tape, etc... They listened, Coggins. Earlier in the thread you said this was an appropriate reaction for Americans. Now, once again you're saying it is not. I can't go on with you.


Admit it, please? Just ONCE Coggins. Admit you're wrong and you were just schooled by a lady 20 years your junior. Just once, for me, please?


Wrong about what? Yes there was fear, and there should have been. Hysteria? Show me the historical evidence. You're claim that it was during a period of fear and hysteria a case was made to invade Iraq is ahistorical. That case was made two full years after 9/11, when precious little fear was even in evidence.


Coggins. Sigh. You stated that there was no threat of smallpox, etc... I entered proof that there indeed was. Oh man. Tired.

Both these statements, as a matter of history, are false. The case was not made during any alleged period of national "hysteria", let alone fear, and the case was never made on the basis of "imminent threat".


Actually the threat of smallpox was considered imminent. The small drone plane was all over the news. Tired....... so tired.......

History lesson 101: America went into Afghanistan on Oct. 7, 2001 in direct response to the 9/11 attacks. Iraq was not invaded until March 20, 2003. Bush's State of the Union speech, which laid out the case for war to the general public, was made in January of 2003, over two years after the Twin Towers attacks, and long after any alleged "hysteria" had long returned to working toward retirement at the country club and worrying about whose next to get voted off of the island.


Coggins. After 9-11 people recognized that we were vulnerable. With that vulnerable state the administration ratcheted up the fear again with the other threats that I've already listed. Just because you say it did not occur (you did deny that the administration did that -- and you're wrong) does not make it so.

Once you come up with some historical evidence that any such "hysteria" existed, outside of fear and serious concern, then you'll have a point here. And, again, how do you know other attacks were not planned? Further, even if they were not, the case for Iraq was not made until two years after 9/11, long after most of the country had essentially moved on as if nothing had happened.


Recall the anthrax hysteria? Do a google for those key words, Coggins. It existed. Then there were (again) the other threats that occurred. It was a constant barrage of threats that the American public was reeling from.

Coggins, you think people had moved on when they were considering getting small pox vaccines? When people rushed out to buy plastic sheets to keep them safe from chemical and biological warfare? I just disagree. And we'll leave it at that.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

We should leave it at that, because you're dancing and prancing too fast for me to keep up. You refuse to own up the the very obvious gaffs you've made in the hysterical record. You claim that the nation was in a state of "hysteria". You have provided no evidence of anything except completely reasonable fear, concern, and uncertainty. You claimed, in clear text, that in this climate, Bush claimed an imminent threat from Iraq. We may be able to agree to disagree on whether or not there was a national "hysteria" over two years after 9/11, but you're assertion that Bush claimed an "imminent threat" is nonsense.

Another question arises here as well. As 9/11 could not have done anything but create a climate of fear, and as the very real continued threats of attacks (and many more attacks did occur, by the way, in Spain, Britain, Bali, and other places) was similarly real, what on earth could a presidential administration do when thrust into such a situation? How, in other words, could Bush have avoided making clear and concise statements regarding the threat and the measures needed to deal with without doing so within the context of the fear that had been generated by the original attacks and then continual attacks on our allies since that time.

You paint Bush as a causal agent of phenomena into which he and the country were inserted by external forces.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:We should leave it at that, because you're dancing and prancing too fast for me to keep up. You refuse to own up the the very obvious gaffs you've made in the hysterical record. You claim that the nation was in a state of "hysteria". You have provided no evidence of anything except completely reasonable fear, concern, and uncertainty. You claimed, in clear text, that in this climate, Bush claimed an imminent threat from Iraq. We may be able to agree to disagree on whether or not there was a national "hysteria" over two years after 9/11, but you're assertion that Bush claimed an "imminent threat" is nonsense.


Coggins, the American public was told there was an imminent threat of terrorists attacks. The American public was told about the things I listed above. The American public was told to prepare for these scenarios. I don't know how more to prove that to you.

Another question arises here as well. As 9/11 could not have done anything but create a climate of fear, and as the very real continued threats of attacks (and many more attacks did occur, by the way, in Spain, Britain, Bali, and other places) was similarly real, what on earth could a presidential administration do when thrust into such a situation? How, in other words, could Bush have avoided making clear and concise statements regarding the threat and the measures needed to deal with without doing so within the context of the fear that had been generated by the original attacks and then continual attacks on our allies since that time.

You paint Bush as a causal agent of phenomena into which he and the country were inserted by external forces.


Coggins, I paint nothing. You have no idea my political affiliation, how I vote, or how I label myself politically. Do you think it's possible I voted for Bush? Do you see liberals in every corner? I am not arguing these points with you from an ideology. I think I've attempted to be quite clear in that. I have not stated that the administration lied to the American public. I merely pointed out the atmosphere the country was in when the case was made to invade Iraq. It is quite reasonable for Americans to be afraid during that time period... of course! That was my point all along -- glad you concede. :)

Here is some drone plane information, if you're interested:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79450,00.html

The issue was that during this time of great fear

(hysteria): n 1: state of violent mental agitation [syn: craze, delirium, frenzy, fury]
2: excessive or uncontrollable fear
3: neurotic disorder characterized by violent emotional
outbreaks and disturbances of sensory and motor functions
[syn: hysterical neurosis]


that the case was made to invade Iraq. It's that simple. Without the fear we never would have entered Iraq. The American public supported the invasion because of their mental state -- which incidentally is what I've said all along.
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