The Fentanyl Crisis is finally solved....

[Markk]

Gad: If you have a choice of buying Excedrin from a place that has "100mg" on the bottle and the pills are consistently 100mg, or a place that says "100mg" on the bottle but sometimes they are 75 or sometimes way over like 527, then who are you going to buy from? Assuming the price is the same.

If you buy from the reliable supplier and choose to take the whole bottle, it won't stop you from dying. However, if your intention is to get the maximum effects possible without dying, then your chances of avoiding accidental overdose are substantially reduced by buying the pills that are consistently 100mg so that you can properly estimate how much you're taking.

Then it was a misnomer when you said it would eventually slow the OD's. In fact they may rise. Comparing a normal non addicted person buying Excedrin to in most cases hopelessly addicted people is silly.

quote me where I said that. I said there are tiered programs. Tier A isn't a camp. Tiers B and lower are the camps. I explained how I would get them there. Arrest isn't necessary if you have a monopoly on the only thing in the world that they care about. We are calling this "operation honeytrap" just so there's no confusion.

Are these camps fenced in with guards? Will you be feeding and clothing them? Offering counseling? Will the be centralized or nation wide?

And this all in under the assumption there is no other choice of drugs.

Gad wrote:
I really don't know how to be more clear. There are no sales through pharmacies. Not in part A and not in part B (the camps).

I think the problem here is as Steuss and Chap have participated, i've had side conversations with them and also contrasted how my operation would work in comparison to theirs in my responses to you. For now on, I won't be commenting on other competing kinds of programs to eliminate fentanyl, in this thread, only clarifying my government program.

Then how do you get it from the pharmacy? You said that was part of you plan? Is it free?

If you really believe this and are not just trying to blow smoke, I would love to see your basement....I am giving you an out, that you are just kidding.

[Gadianton]

Then it was a misnomer when you said it would eventually slow the OD's. In fact they may rise. Comparing a normal non addicted person buying Excedrin to in most cases hopelessly addicted people is silly.

It would absolutely slow the OD's. If suddenly Excedrin pills were packaged unreliably, that would raise the levels of Excedrin ODs. But again, lowering OD is a beneficial side affect, I'm not trying to slow the OD's at this point, I'm just taking over the market. Lower chance of OD due to reliable dose is a selling point to the consumer. Believe it or not, drug users are trying to avoid ODs. They want the maximum high with controlled risk of OD.

Are these camps fenced in with guards? Will you be feeding and clothing them? Offering counseling? Will the be centralized or nation wide?

The B tier camps are nationwide, fenced with guards, feed and clothe, and offer counseling. However, the need for their drug will be like an invisible fence. They aren't going anywhere.

And this all in under the assumption there is no other choice of drugs.

Nothing that would rival Fentanyl. A fentanyl addict isn't going to turn around and smoke pot and be happy. We would not move to part B of the plan unless absolutely sure that there are no realistic options for Fentanyl or direct subs like heroin.

Then how do you get it from the pharmacy? You said that was part of you plan? Is it free?

The pharmacy is not part of my plan in any way. I'm not getting anything from the pharmacy. Ever. The only place the pharmacy would come into play is for tier A users who aren't confined during part B. Perhaps they can get their dose from the pharmacy until the end of the program, but I'm not sure about that. I would rather make it available only through more direct interaction with our counselors for closer monitoring. Once we get to part B, when the "programs" start, then Fentanyl is entirely free, but at this point, the dosage is regulated by the counselors and staff.

In your OP you quote me saying this, "Fentanyl, first off, will be banned entirely for medical use". By the end of my program, nobody will be able to get Fentanyl from the pharmacy for any reason.

I am giving you an out, that you are just kidding.

I'm sure somebody said the same thing to the Chinese authorities who wiped away a 100 year opioid crisis affecting 40 million people in three years.

[Markk]

It would absolutely slow the OD's. If suddenly Excedrin pills were packaged unreliably, that would raise the levels of Excedrin ODs. But again, lowering OD is a beneficial side affect, I'm not trying to slow the OD's at this point, I'm just taking over the market. Lower chance of OD due to reliable dose is a selling point to the consumer. Believe it or not, drug users are trying to avoid ODs. They want the maximum high with controlled risk of OD.

My wife takes half of an Excedrin tablet, I take 2 or 3 at time. Her dosage does nothing for me, 3 would make her sick. Morphine speeds me up, while Methamphetamine slows me down. Point being "know your host." Everybody reacts differently.

How will your perfect stronger product be regulated for individuals that are all different. Your theory here is about formulating a perfect drug, for an imperfect user.

" Gad wrote: Mine will be stronger but less fatal overall because there will be no guesswork about potency; no variation from batch to batch or pill to pill."

"Gad: Believe it or not, drug users are trying to avoid ODs. They want the maximum high with controlled risk of OD."

Believe it or not, most that are addicted hate it, and are depressed, ashamed and feel guilt for their addiction. When they are high, they make bad choices.

Gad: The B tier camps are nationwide, fenced with guards, feed and clothe, and offer counseling. However, the need for their drug will be like an invisible fence. They aren't going anywhere.

If they aren't arrested they can come and go as the please, and just stay in their homes, or streets, taking drugs sold by folks getting drugs from pharmacies, councilors, or the cartel that would take full advantage of that. Who wants to go to some camp? They won't even go to shelters.

Will the camps be actual prisons, or something along the line of a tent camp?

Gad: Nothing that would rival Fentanyl. A fentanyl addict isn't going to turn around and smoke pot and be happy. We would not move to part B of the plan unless absolutely sure that there are no realistic options for Fentanyl or direct subs like heroin.

Carfentanil is the next Fentanyl. Addicts take what they can get, when they can get it.

Gad: The pharmacy is not part of my plan in any way. I'm not getting anything from the pharmacy. Ever. The only place the pharmacy would come into play is for tier A users who aren't confined during part B. Perhaps they can get their dose from the pharmacy until the end of the program, but I'm not sure about that. I would rather make it available only through more direct interaction with our counselors for closer monitoring. Once we get to part B, when the "programs" start, then Fentanyl is entirely free, but at this point, the dosage is regulated by the counselors and staff.

In your OP you quote me saying this, "Fentanyl, first off, will be banned entirely for medical use". By the end of my program, nobody will be able to get Fentanyl from the pharmacy for any reason.

Sounds like you will have a pharmacy for the recreational users in group A, which is my point.

How will these counselors operate? Are you saying these folks in group A are just going to volunteer themselves to the government program, knowing that the my have to go to a camp later? Or would they buy black market product?

Gad: I'm sure somebody said the same thing to the Chinese authorities who wiped away a 100 year opioid crisis affecting 40 million people in three years.

Apple and Oranges. So many different variables. Are you going to execute suppliers and even users, or imprison them with long sentences and no drugs? And the government went after production and usage. They issued a order to stop consumption and production.

[Gadianton]

My wife takes half of an Excedrin tablet, I take 2 or 3 at time. Her dosage does nothing for me, 3 would make her sick. Morphine speeds me up, while Methamphetamine slows me down. Point being "know your host." Everybody reacts differently.

How will your perfect stronger product be regulated for individuals that are all different. Your theory here is about formulating a perfect drug, for an imperfect user.

Right, you take two or three, assuming that the dose is what the label says it is, 200mg. If the manufacturer were unreliable, like the cartel is, sometimes those pills would be less, sometimes they could be substantially more. if there were a really badly measured batch that came out, each pill could be triple, very easily, especially given fentanyl is measured in micrograms not milligrams. So you think you're taking 400-600 mgs, but really you're taking 1200 to 1800. One pill doesn't have to be the "perfect dose" for every individual, just like you and your wife can share the same bottle of Excedrin because she can take one pill and you can take three. The important part is you can rely on the dosage reported on the label.

Now you quote me:

" Gad wrote: Mine will be stronger but less fatal overall because there will be no guesswork about potency; no variation from batch to batch or pill to pill."

but originally you didn't cut out the previous sentence:

The former: Gad wrote...." Which is the very low end and cartel fentanyl is getting debased; other chemicals mixed in lowering potency. So the price is falling. My Fentanyl will be the real deal. Mine will be stronger but less fatal overall because there will be no guesswork about potency; no variation from batch to batch or pill to pill."

I was responding to the situation as it was evolving in October 2024.

Sounds like you will have a pharmacy for the recreational users in group A, which is my point.

Well then you didn't read very carefully. Group A is not recreational users. And they are also going to quit. They are higher functioning users. Typically, people who have housing and can basically take care of themselves. Perfect example would be Rush Limbaugh. Under my regime, he would still be expected to quit, but he could get his product from either a pharmacy or a designated counselor; I haven't decided which yet. For the sake of making it easier for you to understand to point, I'm happy to not use a pharmacy, and have Rush only be able to get it from his designated counselor.

[Markk]

Gad: Nothing that would rival Fentanyl. A fentanyl addict isn't going to turn around and smoke pot and be happy. We would not move to part B of the plan unless absolutely sure that there are no realistic options for Fentanyl or direct subs like heroin.

Markk: Carfentanil is the next Fentanyl. Addicts take what they can get, when they can get it.

You did not comment on this?

Markk: How will these counselors operate? Are you saying these folks in group A are just going to volunteer themselves to the government program, knowing that the my have to go to a camp later? Or would they buy black market product?

You did not opine to this question either. And adding further, if this is a secret operation, how will this work, e.g. ... camps and counselors, not to mention supply? If it is secret, "operation honeytrap," how are you going to sell all the camps, security, counselors, doctors, distributors....etc. If USAID was still around would you fund it through them or a similar opp's group, via an NGO? This would obviously be an operation in the Billions, or would you go through congress?

Well then you didn't read very carefully. Group A is not recreational users. And they are also going to quit. They are higher functioning users. Typically, people who have housing and can basically take care of themselves. Perfect example would be Rush Limbaugh. Under my regime, he would still be expected to quit, but he could get his product from either a pharmacy or a designated counselor; I haven't decided which yet. For the sake of making it easier for you to understand to point, I'm happy to not use a pharmacy, and have Rush only be able to get it from his designated counselor.

How do you know they are going to quite?

I thought you said there was no "legal" fentanyl. "Just like an oil cartel, you beat a drug cartel by underselling it. Fentanyl, first off, will be banned entirely for medical use -- doctors can prescribe something else."

[Gadianton]

I skipped a lot of questions while I've been trying to explain one or two points several times. Since there are no repeats this time, I'll continue.

Markk: Carfentanil

Even better for me. if it's 100 times stronger than fentanyl then our advantage of producing it cleanly and accurately is even greater.

Are you saying these folks in group A are just going to volunteer themselves to the government program, knowing that the my have to go to a camp later? Or would they buy black market product?

Once we move into phase B, our sting operation IS the black market. We took over. Now we reveal that we are law enforcement, and if they want their next hit and avoid arrest, they must work with us.

Those who are group A material have also been unwittingly buying from our sting operation and will be informed that they've been tricked, and they face either arrest, wherein they will have no access to their drug, or they can get their next hit through our program from their counselor.

This would obviously be an operation in the Billions, or would you go through congress?

No, remember, I'm acting as a dictator. If we can spend tens of billions hunting down and detaining 10-20 million illegal immigrants who for the most part have only benefited the economy, then we certainly can entrap and detain 1 million fentanyl addicts who constitute an actual major societal ill. Especially knowing that folks like you are so concerned about solving the problem. I will answer the other questions of that paragraph later, assuming we can get through these others.

How do you know they are going to quit?

Because they are detained, and eventually we won't give them anymore. I will consult our experts regarding how long and how many tries we give everyone to quit. Perhaps they get a year and 5 tries, I don't know exactly. I'm pretty sure it won't be 2 years and 10 tries.

I thought you said there was no "legal" fentanyl. "Just like an oil cartel, you beat a drug cartel by underselling it. Fentanyl, first off, will be banned entirely for medical use -- doctors can prescribe something else."

It's a good question. Consider that right now, the US can produce something like 2.5 kgs of fentanyl per year to be used for legitimate pain management. My right-wing friend got hurt a couple years ago and his doctor was stupid enough to give him fentanyl. Fortunately, his wife was there to make sure he followed the directions. Well, once we start phase B, this ends. No more Fentanyl for pain management. The only fentanyl produced during phase B is for addicts, who are non-legitimate users, and given by their counselor. I suppose you could call this "legal" also, and in that case I misspoke originally, but this is a temporary program, and once the program completes after 1-3 years, this goes away also.

[Markk]

I skipped a lot of questions while I've been trying to explain one or two points several times. Since there are no repeats this time, I'll continue.

???

Gad
Even better for me. if it's 100 times stronger than fentanyl then our advantage of producing it cleanly and accurately is even greater.

The point is there will always me another drug, or cocktail. You are showing you have to compete, and keep up, and not defeat.

Gad: Once we move into phase B, our sting operation IS the black market. We took over. Now we reveal that we are law enforcement, and if they want their next hit and avoid arrest, they must work with us.

Those who are group A material have also been unwittingly buying from our sting operation and will be informed that they've been tricked, and they face either arrest, wherein they will have no access to their drug, or they can get their next hit through our program from their counselor.

Lol...so yo have a sting operations with 100's of thousands addicts in 50 states. Including intelligence, logistics, supervision, and actual sting teams....how many employees will you have here?

No, remember, I'm acting as a dictator. If we can spend tens of billions hunting down and detaining 10-20 million illegal immigrants who for the most part have only benefited the economy, then we certainly can entrap and detain 1 million fentanyl addicts who constitute an actual major societal ill. Especially knowing that folks like you are so concerned about solving the problem. I will answer the other questions of that paragraph later, assuming we can get through these others.

Well this is your plan. Is it different if you are President? How?

Gad
Because they are detained, and eventually we won't give them anymore. I will consult our experts regarding how long and how many tries we give everyone to quit. Perhaps they get a year and 5 tries, I don't know exactly. I'm pretty sure it won't be 2 years and 10 tries.

Relapse is around 50% of those that rehab. I am sure when imprisoned and forced to quit, much much higher.

Gad:It's a good question. Consider that right now, the US can produce something like 2.5 kgs of fentanyl per year to be used for legitimate pain management. My right-wing friend got hurt a couple years ago and his doctor was stupid enough to give him fentanyl. Fortunately, his wife was there to make sure he followed the directions. Well, once we start phase B, this ends. No more Fentanyl for pain management. The only fentanyl produced during phase B is for addicts, who are non-legitimate users, and given by their counselor. I suppose you could call this "legal" also, and in that case I misspoke originally, but this is a temporary program, and once the program completes after 1-3 years, this goes away also.

Okay you misspoke, you will sell fentanyl in pharmacies.

You said in an earlier post that fentanyl a crisis, it sure seems like you are treating it as such.

[Gadianton]

The point is there will always me another drug, or cocktail. You are showing you have to compete, and keep up, and not defeat.

Nope. I already accounted for this; it's one of the reasons this is this possible. Cocktails aren't competition when only purity and concentration matter. It's not Bud vs. Tacate. The only competition is something stronger. In this case Carfentanil is much stronger. It was invented in 1986 by a Belgium veterinarian, not by the Cartel coming up with something new. After that, then what?

how many employees will you have here?

On the infiltration side, phase A, a bump to what we have now. On phase B, we'll be creating some jobs, that's for sure. But, ya gotta do it. Every argument you're making that my user-help program won't work is a worse strike against Trump's program that has no user help at all. But yet, you support it without reservation.

Relapse is around 50% of those that rehab. I am sure when imprisoned and forced to quit, much much higher.

Not if there are no suppliers anymore. Remember, I'm even getting rid of legal fentanyl of all kinds by the end of phase B. Somehow, China wiped out 40 million opioid addicts without significant relapse. It's possible to do.

Okay you misspoke, you will sell fentanyl in pharmacies.

Sure Mark, if it makes you happy. There is a 50% chance I will give it away for free in pharmacies as approved by the user's counselor rather than have the user obtain it from their counselor directly.

[Markk]

Nope. I already accounted for this; it's one of the reasons this is this possible. Cocktails aren't competition when only purity and concentration matter. It's not Bud vs. Tacate. The only competition is something stronger. In this case Carfentanil is much stronger. It was invented in 1986 by a Belgium veterinarian, not by the Cartel coming up with something new. After that, then what?

Yes the are....addicts love the different cocktails. Your theory is based on assumptions; assumptions based on predecessors that are pipe dreams. To say that stronger is the only competition is just not the reality of the drug world. There are busts everyday of combinations of drugs like fentanyl, coke, heroin, and meth. https://x.com/sbcountysheriff/status/17 ... 7599234140

The cartel has a huge base and market.

Who invents a drug the Cartel uses is just a misnomer and straw-man. They use rhino tranquilizer also.

On the infiltration side, phase A, a bump to what we have now. On phase B, we'll be creating some jobs, that's for sure. But, ya gotta do it. Every argument you're making that my user-help program won't work is a worse strike against Trump's program that has no user help at all. But yet, you support it without reservation.

So how many employees will you have? This is not an argument it is a question. If the question answer shows a flaw in your theory....then it is what is, a flaw.

Not if there are no suppliers anymore. Remember, I'm even getting rid of legal fentanyl of all kinds by the end of phase B. Somehow, China wiped out 40 million opioid addicts without significant relapse. It's possible to do.

That is just another straw-man based on your hope that this plan would some how work.

China Drug wars is apple and oranges. Too start, are you going to execute people?

Sure Mark, if it makes you happy. There is a 50% chance I will give it away for free in pharmacies as approved by the user's counselor rather than have the user obtain it from their counselor directly.

You keep contradicting yourself Gad. Sorry but you are.

[Chap]

Not if there are no suppliers anymore. Remember, I'm even getting rid of legal fentanyl of all kinds by the end of phase B. Somehow, China wiped out 40 million opioid addicts without significant relapse. It's possible to do.

That is just another straw-man based on your hope that this plan would some how work.

Has anybody previously remarked on Markk's use of the term 'straw-man'? He seems to be using it here and elsewhere mainly as a way of saying to his opponent 'your argument is weak or based on false assumptions'. But that is not at all what it means in the normal usage of terms for fallacies in argument.

Here is one of many pretty well identical definitions of the term that you can find online:

Straw man fallacy

"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone distorts or exaggerates another person’s argument, and then attacks the distorted version of the argument instead of refuting the original point. By using a straw man, someone can give the appearance of refuting an argument when they have not actually engaged with the original ideas."

This source has the advantage of dramatising an example of a real straw man fallacy as follows:




Just saying ...