Belief in God

[Chap]

I asked the mentioned deity if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true

How did you ensure that your question actually reached the in-tray of that particular deity?

God said yes.

I'm willing to bet that you did not hear any audible words spoken, nor see anything in writing over the signature of the said deity. You just had a certain strong feeling, amirite? So how do you know that was not simply the product of your own brain and of the culture in which you were raised? That is, in 'Ockham's razor' terms, the simplest and hence preferable solution, since it does not involve 'multiplying entities' by supposing that your deity really exists.

[KevinSim]

Understood. I know what it's like to juggle. Best wishes on all of the above!

Thanks!

Still...in the interest of fairness, I'd have to say that from a sociological perspective I think that anyone (believer or non) can hold personal philosophies as to their contributions to others.

Do those contributions ever attempt to provide vital service for everybody? I think, deep down, we have an obligation to provide service for everybody.

I do think that there are a multitude of atheistic type folks who volunteer, give of their time and financial resources, essentially lend the other guy a helping hand in large and small ways. I've seen it right on this board in their posts and when I've pushed fund raisers for disaster victims.

I say, more power to them. They're doing a good thing. But once again, are they helping everybody? I'm not saying anyone has to take on the responsibility of caring for everyone who will ever live. But we should take care of our own personal share of the (entire) human race's troubles. And who besides God knows what that personal share is?

Wanting to help others in their various plights depends on empathy and compassion. I don't see that believers have more of those qualities than non-believers.

I never said they did.

Why is that too much weight for you to carry?

Because taking care of everybody is a huge job. But it still has to he done.

I'm really curious to see whatever other replies you got here and if anyone asked you why you need God for a crutch.

I need a crutch because I'm lame. And when it comes to fulfilling our obligation to the whole human race, aren't we all lame? Is there a better crutch for that task than God?

I think the question you might ask yourself is what do you believe to be true about Jesus?

Jersey Girl, do you think that would be on topic?

[canpakes]

To go along with the question in my post of a few hours prior:

I think, deep down, we have an obligation to provide service for everybody.

How did you reach that conclusion, and what type of obligation does ‘provide service’ entail?

[KevinSim]

Because there seems to be an inordinate amount of pain, inequality, and tragedy in this world for something purported to be omnipotent and loving to be running the show.

Purported to be omnipotent. Some Schmo, how do you know that God is omnipotent?

Like I alluded to, if a creator did get this started, it's impossible for me to believe it would be omnipotent and loving.

Then don't believe God is omnipotent, in the sense that Biblical Christians think God is omnipotent. I don't. I haven't thought God was for years now. Believe God is loving; I don't think a deity that isn't loving is worth worshipping; but I see no reason to believe God is omnipotent.

[Gunnar]

Agreed. I don't rule out the possibility that the universe has a supreme being, simply because the question of whether such a being exists is far above any human's pay grade. I personally find that question uninteresting, because we can't say anything meaningful about something so far beyond our understanding. But even if one were to assume that such a being exists, it does not follow that that being is anything like the supreme being found in any human religion. (I don't even want to refer to it as "God," because the term is so freighted with preconceptions from Abrahamic religions.)

Christianity and nonbelief are the only perspectives that have a widespread presence in American culture. So when they're doing apologetics, Christians will generally make philosophical arguments in favor of a supreme being and then take very few steps to get from "The universe has a supreme being" to "the Christian god is real". They more or less assume that the Christian, or at least Abrahamic, understanding of the supreme being is the only possible one. I find that very irritating.

Very nicely put! I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I decline to even appear to discuss whether 'God' exists. More neutral formulations are needed to avoid smuggling part of the conclusion into the question.

I very much agree with you, Schmo and Manetho on these points.

[Physics Guy]

If Christian apologists jump too quickly from an ultimate being to their specific deity, then I think this criticism can be applied to a lot of assertive atheists, too. They make the same jump, just in the opposite direction.

[Chap]

If Christian apologists jump too quickly from an ultimate being to their specific deity, then I think this criticism can be applied to a lot of assertive atheists, too. They make the same jump, just in the opposite direction.

Oh - them. That weird straw-man sect of atheist people.

Try me, on the other hand. I listen to people talking their various deity-talks, and I think "Does adding that stuff to what I say or think add anything to my understanding of the world about me? Nope. So deities are just not part of my tools for making sense of things.' So far I have seen nothing to make me change my mind.

You OK with that?

[KevinSim]

KevinSim, as God is not going to do any work (‘obligation’) for you, then isn’t the whole weight of whatever that obligation is already on your shoulders?

The Christian message is that Jesus did that portion of our work (if it can be called that) that will end up freeing us from sin. Other than that, we still need to accomplish the rest of our obligation for humanity ourselves, but my point is that without input from God, each of us has no hope of ever figuring out just what her/his share of that obligation is.

[KevinSim]

How did you ensure that your question actually reached the in-tray of that particular deity?

I didn't ensure that my question actually reached that in-tray. But if that deity's in-tray doesn't let in any individual's desperate plea for an answer to that individual's question, when there's no other way for that individual to get that answer, then we're all screwed, aren't we? What other way can we get answers about God? So I have faith that if someone ready to change the whole rest of that someone's life based on God's answer, asks God a question, God will answer that question. What other way is there to find out what our obligation is to the rest of humanity?

I'm willing to bet that you did not hear any audible words spoken, nor see anything in writing over the signature of the said deity. You just had a certain strong feeling, amirite?

Chap, you're absolutely right.

So how do you know that was not simply the product of your own brain and of the culture in which you were raised?

In the sense you're thinking of, I don't know that. And therefore what?

(Something about Ockham's Razor being simplest and therefore preferable.)

I guess I don't understand why Ockham's Razor is preferable. If the simplest explanation for the events around us lead us to the simple conclusion that we're all going to die tomorrow, is it preferable that we simply accept that we're going to die tomorrow, or is it preferable to come up with complicated schemes to try to keep ourselves alive far beyond that 24-hour limit?

[msnobody]

KevinSim, as God is not going to do any work (‘obligation’) for you, then isn’t the whole weight of whatever that obligation is already on your shoulders?

The Christian message is that Jesus did that portion of our work (if it can be called that) that will end up freeing us from sin. Other than that, we still need to accomplish the rest of our obligation for humanity ourselves, but my point is that without input from God, each of us has no hope of ever figuring out just what her/his share of that obligation is.

Jesus did it all. When we trust in Jesus as our propitiation, we have peace with God and live eternally with Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.

I probably shouldn’t post because I have stuff I need to do before tomorrow.