Will the Republic as we know it end?

[Dr Exiled]

So where's the proof of this long game and that its going on? Perhaps turn off the mainstream media? Fox, MSNBC, CNN and the like get ratings from spreading fear, the type of fear in this thread.

However, you can rest easy. Looks like there isn't going to be a red hoard invading the capital, voting against america.

The proof is right in front of your nose, Dr. Exiled. Again, Veritas and others have exhaustively posted about this, but you’ve chosen to either be belligerently ignorant by not reading words, or you’re just being deceitful and pretending to not know about GOP behaviors.

- Doc

Veritas needs to take a look at the other mainstream media outlets and apply his Fox is the root of all evil analysis to them as well. Sure, Fox has been shoving fear at its viewers for years but the others have taken on the same business model. This is why mainstream media viewership is going down.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The proof is right in front of your nose, Dr. Exiled. Again, Veritas and others have exhaustively posted about this, but you’ve chosen to either be belligerently ignorant by not reading words, or you’re just being deceitful and pretending to not know about GOP behaviors.

- Doc

Veritas needs to take a look at the other mainstream media outlets and apply his Fox is the root of all evil analysis to them as well. Sure, Fox has been shoving fear at its viewers for years but the others have taken on the same business model. This is why mainstream media viewership is going down.

This mainstream media thing you’re on is irrelevant to the topic and to reality. REDMAP, for example, was a coordinated effort at gerrymandering. <- this is, in Utah’s case, an illegal action where the legislature held a special session to change the law to allow them to ignore the law in place so they could crack SL Co into four districts thus ensuring perpetual GOP rule. This has been challenged in court, and will be subsequently ignored by justices appointed by the GOP.

That’s the “conspiracy”, a coordinated effort to undermine the rule of law by emplacing people who’ll simply make up either new laws or rulings to ensure GOP hegemony. It’s literally happening and there’s no denying it. Their hubris is open and unchecked.

- Doc

[Vēritās]

Political parties have been doing this since the beginning of the republic.

The armed plotting of coups? Kidnapping Governors?

No, they haven't.

Both republicans and democrats want their people in as many offices as possible. It's nothing new.

You keep dumbing everything down to something so ridiculous as this. Like someone getting arrest for child molestation and you saying, "Everyone loves children, that's nothing new!"

So, what's different other than you are afraid the Republicans will be successful?

They're electing legit nutjobs at a record pace. Lorraine Boebert recently said she believes the government should be controlled by her Church. Marjorie Taylor-Greene believes in Jewish space lasers. Herschel Walker is the epitome of stupidity, violence and hypocrisy.

I personally doubt the republicans will get as far as you believe. Just take a look at the election yesterday.

That's beside the point. The point being is they're trying to destroy Democracy because the writing has been on the wall for them for decades now. they understand that the only way they can remain in power is to take shortcuts and undermine their oaths to the constitution. Hence, the dishonest methods in which they stole Supreme Court seats, who in turn do their bidding no matter what the majority of the country wants (i.e. Abortion). Hence, the incessant gerrymandering. If it weren't for the electoral college I doubt Republicans would ever win the White House again short of an absolutely ridiculous scandal.

And really, all the Democrats have to do is wean themselves off of wall street money and go back to how they were in the 70's and 80's, antiwar, anti-monopoly and pro-worker.

Because the voters who really care about that are choosing to vote Republican because.... well, you know, they're not into that Wall Street money stuff, huh? Are you for realz?

Sell something other than republicans are fascists.

You're literally quoting the idiots on FOX News, which tells us you live in a sheltered bubble of your own making if you cannot see what Democrats have really been selling and all the accomplishments Biden has made in just half a term. Biden made it clear what he was selling when he ran for office. The Republicans being fascists was just extra gravy, but it was never a selling point.

[Vēritās]

Veritas needs to take a look at the other mainstream media outlets and apply his Fox is the root of all evil analysis to them as well. Sure, Fox has been shoving fear at its viewers for years but the others have taken on the same business model. This is why mainstream media viewership is going down.

The only thing I see is legit warning about what Republicans intend to do but they are based on what they've said they'll do. For years we were told there was no reason to fear the overturning of Roe because that could never happen and no one was trying that anyway. And yet, mainstream media warned of this more than a year before the GOP actually managed it. Taking away the rights of citizens for the first time in... what... ever? But tell us how Republicans want more freedom and liberty. It is a joke, and they've no one to blame but themselves.

Are you looking forward to McCarthy holding impeachment hearings?

[Vēritās]

This "both sides do it" is old and stupid.

North Carolina Sheriff Who Resigned After Making Racist Comments Wins Reelection

"Jody Greene bested his Democratic opponent despite recently stepping down over leaked audio of him disparaging Black deputies."

Because Republicans are pro-cop, and they're not racist. We see crap like this happening all over the country and if not always, its almost always a Republican.

[Kishkumen]

Political parties have been doing this since the beginning of the republic. Both republicans and democrats want their people in as many offices as possible. It's nothing new. So, what's different other than you are afraid the Republicans will be successful? I personally doubt the republicans will get as far as you believe. Just take a look at the election yesterday. And really, all the Democrats have to do is wean themselves off of wall street money and go back to how they were in the 70's and 80's, antiwar, anti-monopoly and pro-worker. Sell something other than republicans are fascists. Dismantle the pro-monopoly laws and favorable tax schemes, perhaps actually do medicare for all, and the majority of independents will flock back and stop the red hoard you so fear.

Looks like you have your own narrative, Dr Exiled. One in which you seem to assume an awful lot about what I think and believe. One that is full of false dichotomies too. I have never said that Republicans and Democrats have not both used tactics to maximize their political success. Sure. The GOP has, however, maximized the effectiveness of gerrymandering combined with voter suppression to the point where minority rule in many places is demonstrable. Whataboutism does not help. Either the votes of the people yield results that more or less represent their voices or they don't. At a certain point, minority rule essentially cancels the votes of a lot of citizens.

Sure, we can talk about all the things the Democrats have done wrong, and some of them I would agree with you about.

Hey, I'm not a Democrat, in case you needed a reminder, and I am not one partly because of points you have raised above.

But that does not mean that there is not a strong authoritarian strain in today's Republican Party. You can pretend like it doesn't exist, but it clearly does exist, whether we call it fascism or something else. In fact, authoritarianism is demonstrably on the ascendant in many places globally. You can pretend that this is not the case, or that somehow the US does not fit the pattern, but you would be arguing against the best evidence.

Now, is it not partially the fault of people on the Left that this authoritarianism has become so popular? I agree.

But now that it has happened, and the wolf is at the door, I am not about to vote Republican just because Democrats are to blame in their own way. The blame game is good before the problem reaches this degree. Blaming is for people who want to be eaten by the wolf to waste their time on.

Waste away.

Of course, it may be that you are calculating that authoritarianism is what we need in order to set things aright. I don't agree, but that is what some argue.

[Dr Exiled]

Political parties have been doing this since the beginning of the republic. Both republicans and democrats want their people in as many offices as possible. It's nothing new. So, what's different other than you are afraid the Republicans will be successful? I personally doubt the republicans will get as far as you believe. Just take a look at the election yesterday. And really, all the Democrats have to do is wean themselves off of wall street money and go back to how they were in the 70's and 80's, antiwar, anti-monopoly and pro-worker. Sell something other than republicans are fascists. Dismantle the pro-monopoly laws and favorable tax schemes, perhaps actually do medicare for all, and the majority of independents will flock back and stop the red hoard you so fear.

Looks like you have your own narrative, Dr Exiled. One in which you seem to assume an awful lot about what I think and believe. One that is full of false dichotomies too. I have never said that Republicans and Democrats have not both used tactics to maximize their political success. Sure. The GOP has, however, maximized the effectiveness of gerrymandering combined with voter suppression to the point where minority rule in many places is demonstrable. Whataboutism does not help. Either the votes of the people yield results that more or less represent their voices or they don't. At a certain point, minority rule essentially cancels the votes of a lot of citizens.

Sure, we can talk about all the things the Democrats have done wrong, and some of them I would agree with you about.

Hey, I'm not a Democrat, in case you needed a reminder, and I am not one partly because of points you have raised above.

But that does not mean that there is not a strong authoritarian strain in today's Republican Party. You can pretend like it doesn't exist, but it clearly does exist, whether we call it fascism or something else. In fact, authoritarianism is demonstrably on the ascendant in many places globally. You can pretend that this is not the case, or that somehow the US does not fit the pattern, but you would be arguing against the best evidence.

Now, is it not partially the fault of people on the Left that this authoritarianism has become so popular? I agree.

But now that it has happened, and the wolf is at the door, I am not about to vote Republican just because Democrats are to blame in their own way. The blame game is good before the problem reaches this degree. Blaming is for people who want to be eaten by the wolf to waste their time on.

Waste away.

Of course, it may be that you are calculating that authoritarianism is what we need in order to set things aright. I don't agree, but that is what some argue.

I have a few republican friends and know a few in politics. I also know democrats in politics, too. Both aren't how the media portrays them.

I know there is a lot of disagreement on Jan 6 and what happened there. I watched it as it unfolded as you did. I still wonder why the cops were in the capitol with the protesters taking selfies and why the cops let them through the barricades in the first place. It seemed like the protest stories from veteran vietnam war protesters where the FBI/CIA would put in plants to lead the protesters down an alley were the cops were waiting to give them a beating. However, the other videos of protesters beating on the cops is also pretty disturbing. But there is no possibility of an over-reaction for political gain here? On the whole, I wasn't and still am not afraid of a republican fascist revolution. Seems unlikely at this point. Sure, there are the fringes but there weren't any guns at Jan 6 and it looked poorly organized if it was a coup attempt. I don't think Trump could pull off such a thing given how inept he was as president. Also, we already live in a country where corporations are pretty cozy with the government and there is an ever present campaign against free speech that democrats and a lot of republicans support. Maybe the authoritarianism you see comes from a different place, with the oligarchy that are the real rulers, and maybe the fascism scare is part of the pitting one group against the other? How else could they get away with no banker going to jail? With sending manufacturing jobs to low wage countries? There needs to be an enemy to look down upon otherwise the people may just look at the oligarchy and surely that cannot happen.

[Morley]

ISure, there are the fringes but there weren't any guns at Jan 6 and it looked poorly organized if it was a coup attempt.

Exiled,

According to The Washington Post, 8 July 2022:

The full picture of how many among the crowd were armed before the riot occurred is unclear, but court records, trial testimony and accounts from police officers and rioters have supplied growing evidence that multiple people brought firearms to Washington for Jan. 6, 2021. Six men were arrested that day for having guns in the vicinity of the U.S. Capitol, and a seventh who arrived after the riot ended was arrested the following day. Despite some instances in which alerts about people with guns turned out to be false alarms, accounts from police officers and rioters indicate that many firearms were spotted on Jan. 6 but were not seized as law enforcement focused more on defending the Capitol than on arresting gun-law violators.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... ants-guns/


And CNN, 21 Oct 2022:

A January 6 rioter who carried two loaded handguns onto US Capitol grounds during the insurrection was sentenced to 60 months in jail on Friday after pleading guilty to assaulting an officer that day and unlawfully carrying a firearm.

Mark Mazza, 56, entered the Capitol grounds armed with two handguns, one of which – a revolver called the “Judge” loaded with shotgun shells and hollow point bullets – he lost on the lower west terrace just outside the building.

After losing the gun, Mazza joined the mob in a tunnel leading inside the Capitol, a scene where police were brutally attacked for hours by rioters armed with bats, poles, chemical spray, and the officer’s own weapons.

During the attack, Mazza – still armed with his second pistol, according to prosecutors – took a baton from one officer and used it against him.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/21/politics ... -sentenced


Maybe not guns, but Factcheck.org on the subject:

According to a database compiled by NPR, of the people charged with violent offenses, including assault on police officers, 15 were armed with deadly or dangerous weapons during the riot at the Capitol.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/capit ... 0Capitol.


Whether or not it was poorly organized has nothing to do with whether it was a coup attempt or not.

[Kishkumen]

I have a few republican friends and know a few in politics. I also know democrats in politics, too. Both aren't how the media portrays them.

That's nice to know, Dr Exiled. I can say the very same. Two of my favorite former grad students are Christian conservatives, and both of them abhor Trump. I am not sure what your point is.

I know there is a lot of disagreement on Jan 6 and what happened there. I watched it as it unfolded as you did. I still wonder why the cops were in the capitol with the protesters taking selfies and why the cops let them through the barricades in the first place. It seemed like the protest stories from veteran vietnam war protesters where the FBI/CIA would put in plants to lead the protesters down an alley were the cops were waiting to give them a beating. However, the other videos of protesters beating on the cops is also pretty disturbing. But there is no possibility of an over-reaction for political gain here? On the whole, I wasn't and still am not afraid of a republican fascist revolution. Seems unlikely at this point. Sure, there are the fringes but there weren't any guns at Jan 6 and it looked poorly organized if it was a coup attempt. I don't think Trump could pull off such a thing given how inept he was as president. Also, we already live in a country where corporations are pretty cozy with the government and there is an ever present campaign against free speech that democrats and a lot of republicans support. Maybe the authoritarianism you see comes from a different place, with the oligarchy that are the real rulers, and maybe the fascism scare is part of the pitting one group against the other? How else could they get away with no banker going to jail? With sending manufacturing jobs to low wage countries? There needs to be an enemy to look down upon otherwise the people may just look at the oligarchy and surely that cannot happen.

I don't know exactly how to respond to your disorganized musings on the insurrection at the Capitol. I think it is pretty clear that Trump and his circle, including some congressional insiders, did plan to stop the counting of electoral ballots for the purpose of overturning the election. The fact that their insurrectionists got very close to making personal contact with members of Congress and the VP says that, whatever you think an insurrection should look like, this one certainly was deadly and could have resulted in further loss of life and a delay of the count.

As I have said already, January 6 is only one part of a bigger problem. The bigger problem is the widespread belief that our elections are somehow fatally compromised. If this sets in, then it may be hard to get people out to vote and then respect the results of our elections. I am somewhat relieved by the failure of so many Trump-backed, election-denying candidates in this cycle. Hopefully this year will be the high-water mark of this particular problem, but in the longterm we are still left with a fair amount of widespread discomfort regarding the impact of technology on the security of our election processes.

It would also be a good idea to look at history. A coup does not necessarily have to be well planned and well executed to work. A coup could work and not comport to the image of an intricate ballet of high-tech, precision violence such as one sees in a James Bond or John Wick film.

[canpakes]

I watched it as it unfolded as you did. I still wonder why the cops were in the capitol with the protesters taking selfies and why the cops let them through the barricades in the first place.

DrE -

In any crowd of law enforcement present that day, you’d likely have found someone sympathetic to the sentiment of the MAGA crowd outside, and I’m sure that one or more ended up in ‘selfies’ with one or more of those protesters. But, context is important. Were these selfies taken at the doors of the Capitol as the crowds were surging to get inside, or elsewhere on the grounds during more peaceful moments?

It’s reasonable to have some officers retreat from or even displace a barricade when it looks like the size and mood of the crowd would lead to much more dire circumstances if the only other option is ‘holding their ground’. Maybe officers in that situation hoped that letting the crowd move past them wouldn’t necessarily lead to an attempt to breach the doors. Maybe they feared for their safety. Maybe they didn’t want to fire upon their fellow citizens due to how grave a situation that could have created. But to blithely claim that officers were just happily taking selfies and moving the barricades aside to let rioters pass by shows a certain amount of disrespect for what hundreds of them experienced that day.