The Rise in Political Violence

[Res Ipsa]

I will be the first to say that I think Ceeboo has a moral compass, just like I do. I also hate it when someone drags my name into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in. In his place, I’d be pretty defensive.

What I would love to understand is how Ceeboo’s moral compass helps him navigate Donald Trump. Not to castigate him. But because I genuinely don’t understand how he does it. And if I can’t even understand that, then you can accurately label me as a”doomer,” because we are all well and truly screwed.

[ceeboo]

I will be the first to say that I think Ceeboo has a moral compass,

Once again, you display your ability to measure individual human beings as individual human beings rather than seeing said individual as merely a member of large and complex groups cemented with labels. I sincerely admire and applaud this rather rare quality of yours, and I try to follow your valuable example (sometimes I fall short, especially as it relates to politics).

just like I do.

I wouldn't go that far.

What I would love to understand is how Ceeboo’s moral compass helps him navigate Donald Trump.

I would love to try to explain it to you.

First, I bit of table setting is required.

In my mind, individual morals and ethics are two sides of the same coin. In short, it's a cocktail with the main ingredients consisting of right and wrong, human behavior, and decision making - In addition to that, I think elected officials have broader moral obligations and responsibilities to those that have elected them - In this specific case, it would be the broader morals obligations and responsibilities that Trump/Harris have to the citizens of the USA.

So, what is my personal view of Trump's morals and ethics (this cocktail with the main factors being right and wrong, human behavior, and decision making? Here is my short list: I think they suck. I think he is divisive - an egomaniac - says mean things - and is largely unkind to other human beings who do not support him. However, I do not believe he is Hitler - or will end our Republic - or is a Nazi/Fascist/Dictator/etc. Not even a little bit.

But you didn't ask me what I thought of Trump's morals, you asked me how my moral compass helps me navigate Trump. The answer is that my moral compass doesn't help me navigate Trump. I don't see Trump (or any politician) as a messiah or someone I look to for an example of how to treat human beings. As a believer, I have that in spades. To be fair, even though I would suggest that Trump's toxic rhetoric is quite high, it is my opinion that the great majority of Washington DC politicians are trying their best to challenge him for the gold medal in toxic rhetoric (Harris/Biden most certainly included)

What does my moral compass help me navigate? As it relates to Presidential voting specifically, I focus on the above referenced broader moral obligations and responsibilities that political parties in power (not individual people) have to all of the citizens of the country that they serve. In my view, the current political party in power has failed the citizens of this country, miserably. In addition to things such as their destructive and divisive obsession with identity politics, race, gender, sexual orientation, and their apparent desire to remove merit from being a thing, I believe their complete and literally insane failure to secure the border, for years on end, has been, by a large margin, the most egregious failure of all.

Since we are discussing morals/ethics: I should at least mention that there a more than a few American citizens that believe ending the life of an innocent unborn baby - or "reproductive rights" if you prefer - is one of the greatest and horrific evils to have ever surfaced from the deep and dark depths. I understand how sensitive this topic can be, and I also understand that many of my fellow American citizens have a very different perspective/opinion as it relates to this topic. I also recognize that many would suggest that I, a male, have no right to speak on the issue. I only mention abortion because this topic, alone, can be (and is in some cases) the sole reason that an individual, using their individual moral compass, will cast their vote on either side of the abortion issue.

Anyway, I hope this at least shed a bit of light regarding your question.

(This is NOT directed at you, Res - rather, it is directed at the board: I wonder why this challenge to someone's personal "moral compass" always seems to be directed at certain people who happen to hold certain political leanings. Weird.)

[Morley]

Thank you for taking the time to put that together, ceeboo.

[Marcus]

I will be the first to say that I think Ceeboo has a moral compass, just like I do. I also hate it when someone drags my name into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in. In his place, I’d be pretty defensive...

Ceeboo's been participating in this thread since he was the first to respond to the OP. You were the third. I'm not sure what you mean by having one's name "dragged into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in." Did I miss something?

[canpakes]

I will be the first to say that I think Ceeboo has a moral compass, just like I do. I also hate it when someone drags my name into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in. In his place, I’d be pretty defensive.

What I would love to understand is how Ceeboo’s moral compass helps him navigate Donald Trump. Not to castigate him. But because I genuinely don’t understand how he does it. And if I can’t even understand that, then you can accurately label me as a”doomer,” because we are all well and truly screwed.

Maybe it’s not the compass that is the issue so much as the lens that it is being read through.

I haven’t met any Trump voters who seem to be able or willing to cogently articulate why they want Trump back in office, past vague and dubious generalizations that don’t really hold up under examination. There is a single exception, though … one underlying and consistently implied theme winds its way through their thinking and out into their spoken (or shouted) opinions - even if not directly - about everything they don’t favor:

“Somebody is getting something that they don’t deserve ..!”

- DEI? Somebody is getting a job or benefit they don’t deserve.
- Affirmative Action? Somebody is getting a college degree they don’t deserve.
- Gay or Trans issues? Somebody is getting a ‘special right’ or some attention they don’t deserve.
- TANF or Childcare assistance? Somebody is getting assistance that they don’t deserve (they should have kept their legs crossed!)
- College Loan Forgiveness? Somebody is getting financial help they don’t deserve.
- Illegal immigration? Somebody is getting into this country and they don’t deserve to be here.

The last example is the clearest one, given how strongly Trump and his surrogates have leaned into it. In case you missed it - and as example - Megyn Kelly was on Bill Maher’s show the other night, and when asked how or why she supports Trump, illegal immigration was her primary ranting point, with her repeating the BS lie of ‘20 million’ illegals having marched in since Trump was booted from office. But the problem for her isn’t that the path to citizenship is horribly dysfunctional or that we desperately need more resources to process people wanting to enter the country. There’s no mention of any of that from her. Rather, it’s that they’re here at all. And, that’s not allowed, dammit! They’re getting things and stuff!

Megyn and her viewers have a kind of ‘moral compass’ at work there, but the reference point isn’t based on any overarching concepts of morality or justice. Rather, their compass bases its reference on that individual’s personal point of view and on how they feel unfairly wronged in comparison.

Folks locked into this perspective are not going to change, nor are they able to recognize the flaw in that approach. They’ve been processing their journey through life within that more-egocentric framework for decades. It’s a set behavior.

One could even argue that this is just the ever present human sense of self-preservation at work, but manifesting in a warped way.

Anyhow, apologies for phrasing all of this crudely, but we’re carving pumpkins at the moment and I’m a bit distracted.
: )

[Marcus]

I will be the first to say that I think Ceeboo has a moral compass, just like I do. I also hate it when someone drags my name into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in. In his place, I’d be pretty defensive.

What I would love to understand is how Ceeboo’s moral compass helps him navigate Donald Trump. Not to castigate him. But because I genuinely don’t understand how he does it. And if I can’t even understand that, then you can accurately label me as a”doomer,” because we are all well and truly screwed.

Maybe it’s not the compass that is the issue so much as the lens that it is being read through.

I haven’t met any Trump voters who seem to be able or willing to cogently articulate why they want Trump back in office, past vague and dubious generalizations that don’t really hold up under examination. There is a single exception, though … one underlying and consistently implied theme winds its way through their thinking and out into their spoken (or shouted) opinions - even if not directly - about everything they don’t favor:

“Somebody is getting something that they don’t deserve ..!”

- DEI? Somebody is getting a job or benefit they don’t deserve.
- Affirmative Action? Somebody is getting a college degree they don’t deserve.
- Gay or Trans issues? Somebody is getting a ‘special right’ or some attention they don’t deserve.
- TANF or Childcare assistance? Somebody is getting assistance that they don’t deserve (they should have kept their legs crossed!)
- College Loan Forgiveness? Somebody is getting financial help they don’t deserve.
- Illegal immigration? Somebody is getting into this country and they don’t deserve to be here.

The last example is the clearest one, given how strongly Trump and his surrogates have leaned into it. In case you missed it - and as example - Megyn Kelly was on Bill Maher’s show the other night, and when asked how or why she supports Trump, illegal immigration was her primary ranting point, with her repeating the BS lie of ‘20 million’ illegals having marched in since Trump was booted from office. But the problem for her isn’t that the path to citizenship is horribly dysfunctional or that we desperately need more resources to process people wanting to enter the country. There’s no mention of any of that from her. Rather, it’s that they’re here at all. And, that’s not allowed, dammit! They’re getting things and stuff!

Megyn and her viewers have a kind of ‘moral compass’ at work there, but the reference point isn’t based on any overarching concepts of morality or justice. Rather, their compass bases its reference on that individual’s personal point of view and on how they feel unfairly wronged in comparison.

Folks locked into this perspective are not going to change, nor are they able to recognize the flaw in that approach. They’ve been processing their journey through life within that more-egocentric framework for decades. It’s a set behavior.

One could even argue that this is just the ever present human sense of self-preservation at work, but manifesting in a warped way.

Anyhow, apologies for phrasing all of this crudely, but we’re carving pumpkins at the moment and I’m a bit distracted.
: )

Interesting perspective. Not coincidentally at all, the reason of this type I heard today from a Trump supporter was that, unless Trump 'fixes' it, transgender athletes who play on teams will also continue to:
"get something they don't deserve...!"

[canpakes]

Interesting perspective. Not coincidentally at all, the reason of this type I heard today from a Trump supporter was that, unless Trump 'fixes' it, transgender athletes who play on teams will also continue to:
"get something they don't deserve...!"

I actually have a mixed perspective on that subject. I understand the POV regarding a potential advantage for trans athletes who began life as ‘biological males’ (for lack of more accurate terminology) and now want to participate in a sport against cis women. I don’t think that the optimal solution has been found due to how complex and individualized the issue actually is (and it’s amusing that the folks complaining about such things seem to have nothing to say about the reverse situation).

But, for a candidate to use this as a primary wedge issue, and for any voter to base their allegiance to a candidate for doing so, is ludicrous in my opinion. The best estimates are that there may not even be 100 such situations like this across the entire country that would have any potential to affect records or standings. To use that trivial quantity to mislead, divide and spread hatred against a large segment of the population is unconscionable.

[honorentheos]

For me this is supposedly a discussion board. The morality of the board is measured in sincerity as a participant. It's purely utilitarian ethics.

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks Ceebs. I’m going to take some time to digest before I respond.

[Res Ipsa]

I will be the first to say that I think Ceeboo has a moral compass, just like I do. I also hate it when someone drags my name into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in. In his place, I’d be pretty defensive...

Ceeboo's been participating in this thread since he was the first to respond to the OP. You were the third. I'm not sure what you mean by having one's name "dragged into a thread I haven’t chosen to participate in." Did I miss something?

It’s something that Ceebs has objected to on several occasions in the context of political discussions. My comment was not restricted to this thread.