Biden's Economy?

[Doctor Steuss]

US oil and gas production reached an all time high in 2023, and refineries are running between 90-95% capacity. We also found a massive lithium deposit in Nevada. Thanks, Biden!

- Doc

On a related note, our oil imports are the lowest in decades. I think this is one of those areas where Democrats are in a bit of a self-made pickle as far as messaging goes. They've sold themselves to segments of the base as anti-fossil fuels, yet here we are in better shape with fossil fuel and energy independence than the mouth-breathing MAGA dolts and the god-emperor Trump were able to do.

(Obligatory mini-rant by me, that I think using our own oil is short-sighted and bad for long term security)

[Vēritās]

US oil and gas production reached an all time high in 2023, and refineries are running between 90-95% capacity. We also found a massive lithium deposit in Nevada. Thanks, Biden!

- Doc

On a related note, our oil imports are the lowest in decades. I think this is one of those areas where Democrats are in a bit of a self-made pickle as far as messaging goes. They've sold themselves to segments of the base as anti-fossil fuels, yet here we are in better shape with fossil fuel and energy independence than the mouth-breathing MAGA dolts and the god-emperor Trump were able to do.

(Obligatory mini-rant by me, that I think using our own oil is short-sighted and bad for long term security)

I don't see much of a conflict there. Special circumstances call for a change in policy, and highest inflation in 40 years driven by energy costs was the circumstance. The market will ensure the gradual shift to clean energy without government intervention. We currently own three Teslas and I'm awaiting my Cybertruck. Next year I will be installing a solar system. Selling people on going electric was difficult back in 2008 when FOX News kept mocking the concept of plug in cars and bashed the whole Solandra affair. But selling people on the idea isn't really that hard anymore. Electric cars aren't that much more expensive than gas and they're only getting cheaper. Within the next decade you're going to see more and more Truckers using Teslas as well as taxis. It really is an embarrassment to our species that it took us this long to figure out what is best. Elon Musk once pointed out that we could provide the entire country's electricity needs by using a swath of Nevada desert about 100 sq miles I think it was. In 50 years gasoline should be less than a buck per gallon.

[Physics Guy]

Last year when we checked all the models we could find, electric cars that would almost replace the functionality of a gasoline-powered car were going to cost twice as much. That was in large part because we could buy a perfectly good five-year-old used gas car, while the batteries on older electric cars sucked. I’ve never bought a new car in my life, but switching to electric was going to force me to do that.

The factor of two in price was just too big a fact to ignore. I hope they get cheaper quickly. I agree that they should.

[Vēritās]

Last year when we checked all the models we could find, electric cars that would almost replace the functionality of a gasoline-powered car were going to cost twice as much. That was in large part because we could buy a perfectly good five-year-old used gas car, while the batteries on older electric cars sucked. I’ve never bought a new car in my life, but switching to electric was going to force me to do that.

The factor of two in price was just too big a fact to ignore. I hope they get cheaper quickly. I agree that they should.

The irony is that the people who spend upwards of $100k on their four wheeled vanity projects, usually in the form of 4x4 Trucks with lift kits and MAGA flags, are typically the same people complaining about gas prices and a $40k cost of an electric car.

Currently the best selling sedans are Toyota Camry and Honda Accord which start at $28k in their stripped versions with zero options.

A Tesla Model 3 single motor can be purchased for $38k, but after a $7500 tax credit + $3,000 (over 3 years) in gasoline savings, it ends up being roughly the same price as the two top selling sedans, except you cannot buy a stripped version of a Tesla. If you consider $1,000 in gas saving every year after that, it could very well end up being less expensive. The performance and safety rating in a Tesla is going to be well above anything you can get from a $40k gas guzzling car.

[Doctor Steuss]

It'll be interesting just how much municipalities address EV taxes in the coming years/decades, once roads and other things start falling into disrepair because of the lack of gas tax revenue.

Right now, owning an EV means you get to side-step the social contract, and get all of the benefit of other people's tax dollars without having to contribute at all. The Tesla truck is going to tear up roadways, and the owners will have absolutely no fiscal accountability for it.

[Vēritās]

Uh, no. I pay nearly $300 per year on each car just to renew the tag as opposed to the $20 I was paying on previous cars. EV owners aren't skimping out from paying taxes to the DOT just because we're no longer buying gas. That's a myth.

[Doctor Steuss]

Uh, no. I pay nearly $300 per year on each car just to renew the tag as opposed to the $20 I was paying on previous cars. EV owners aren't skimping out from paying taxes to the DOT just because we're no longer buying gas. That's a myth.

I paid $375 last year for my 6-year-old gas car in registration fees. I pay an additional $400+ in gas taxes every year driving it. For my 12-year-old-truck, it's $280, and lord knows how much in gas taxes if I drove it more often (32 mpg vs. 16 mpg).

For a myth, it sure hits my pocketbook differently than my friend who has a 4-year-old Tesla. He paid $450 last year for registration, and zero in gas taxes. I also don't recall getting a $7500 tax subsidy for my car.

[Physics Guy]

The problem isn't how expensive new electric cars are compared to new combustion cars. It's how expensive new electric cars are compared to used combustion cars, while comparably old used electric cars are scarce and bad.

I'm speaking of our own experience a year ago, comparing prices for vehicles that would meet our needs. There was a factor of about two, even after deducting a hefty government rebate from the EV price. We don't put no 100K into our single vehicle. We need a thing to get us around, and we don't have a big budget for it.

Another issue I've been hearing about lately, that I haven't had to face personally because we haven't yet gone electric, is that the wave of charging stations that spread over the landscape a few years ago has been caught and surpassed by the wave of electric vehicle adoption, so that it is now harder to get a free space at a charging station than it used to be. From what I read, it looks as though the charging infrastructure problem that was so nicely getting solved is now unsolved again.

Installing our own charging equipment was going to be another major expense, in spite of another big government rebate on it.

We'll still have to do it eventually. I'm keen on electric vehicles, but I think it will be a few years still before they're quite ready to take over. I really wanted to get one last year, but it just didn't make sense.

[Vēritās]

Uh, no. I pay nearly $300 per year on each car just to renew the tag as opposed to the $20 I was paying on previous cars. EV owners aren't skimping out from paying taxes to the DOT just because we're no longer buying gas. That's a myth.

I paid $375 last year for my 6-year-old gas car in registration fees. I pay an additional $400+ in gas taxes every year driving it. For my 12-year-old-truck, it's $280, and lord knows how much in gas taxes if I drove it more often (32 mpg vs. 16 mpg).

For a myth, it sure hits my pocketbook differently than my friend who has a 4-year-old Tesla. He paid $450 last year for registration, and zero in gas taxes. I also don't recall getting a $7500 tax subsidy for my car.

Well, you said EV owners have "no fiscal accountability" which is utter horse crap. The fact is, not only do I pay a flat rate on each EV no matter how little I drive them, but I also pay taxes when I'm charging in public, it varies from state to state. I have no idea what that adds up to, but it is likely the case that some EV owners are paying more in taxes than others who stick with gas. In fact, my daughter's Model 3 only has 13k miles on it and she is going on 3 years. The average car in Georgia drives 18,000 miles per year so she uses the roads far less than your average driver, but her annual tag costs the same whereas your taxes are commensurate with the time you spend driving on the roads. I think people who drive more on the roads should pay more to maintain them.

[Vēritās]

The problem isn't how expensive new electric cars are compared to new combustion cars. It's how expensive new electric cars are compared to used combustion cars, while comparably old used electric cars are scarce and bad.

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Used EV's today are generally first generation and they are fairly scarce. That's a problem that will work itself out as more and more people make the transition. But yeah, obviously those who are in the market for a "beater" under $10k aren't going to be interested in an EV.

Another issue I've been hearing about lately, that I haven't had to face personally because we haven't yet gone electric, is that the wave of charging stations that spread over the landscape a few years ago has been caught and surpassed by the wave of electric vehicle adoption, so that it is now harder to get a free space at a charging station than it used to be.

Nah. I've never had that problem. Even during rush hour times. The Tesla computer will tell you where the nearest super charger is and it will also tell you how many stations are being used and for how long. There were a couple of times I was pulling in thinking I might now get a spot open because it was looking full, but there ended up being 1 or 2 empty and a car would pull out every five minutes or so. What people don't understand is that Tesla drivers don't sit at these places for 30+ minutes, they typically sit for about 10-15 minutes and they do it when their battery is below 40%. The lower the battery is, the faster it will charge. For instance, it is far more economical financially and time wise to go to a super charger with a 10% battery because it will charge from 10% to 80% faster than it would charge from 80% to 100%. Unless I'm driving out of state for some reason I can typically go to a supercharging station, sit for 10-15 minutes and the car has added another 100-150 miles in range, which is all I need for the next couple of days just driving around town doing errands.

But no one really charges the battery to 100% except in rare instances when you're driving cross country and there is a longer gap between charging stations. Tesla recommends we charge only to 80% because it helps with battery longevity and few people need to drive farther than that in a day.

Incidentally, there are two types of Tesla chargers open to the public. Super Chargers that vary between 100-250 KW hr, and the "Destination Chargers" which you can find at many hotels in the parking lot. Destination chargers are just like the chargers you'd buy to have installed at your home, and take about 3-4 hrs to fully charge. The best part is they're absolutely free to use. Several times I've gone to a Destination charger and just let it charge while we ate at a nearby restaurant.

From what I read, it looks as though the charging infrastructure problem that was so nicely getting solved is now unsolved again.

Maybe with others, but I doubt that is true with Tesla. This was probably 70% of the reason I chose Tesla, their wide network of charging stations. They got a head start on everyone else in the business and it isn't even close. It is so bad for the competitors that Elon Musk is going to make it so other EV brands will be able to use Tesla chargers with adaptors.

Installing our own charging equipment was going to be another major expense, in spite of another big government rebate on it.

I had a Tesla charger installed to service the first two but then added a second charger when my son got his Model 3. It is about a $1500 expense unless you buy it with the car purchase, then it ends up being about $500. But Tesla does give you a 220V cable that you can charge in a 220 or regular 110 outlet, it just takes longer to charge. But here's the cool thing. Georgia Power comes to your house and programs your meter when you tell them you have an EV, because charging your car between the hours of 11pm and 7am is half the price. Which is perfect because it will charge completely in about 4 hrs and be done well before you wake up. But we only charge our cars every few days or so because we can get 300 miles of range on a 90% charge.

We'll still have to do it eventually. I'm keen on electric vehicles, but I think it will be a few years still before they're quite ready to take over. I really wanted to get one last year, but it just didn't make sense.

I have three of them and I'll never go back to gas. Ever. I don't know any other EV owners who would either. If you have any questions or concerns about Teslas in particular, I can probably answer most of your questions.