Impeachment hearings

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_Gunnar
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Gunnar »

Jersey Girl wrote:Question. Does anyone else feel completely SICK about this trial?

I mean like we're watching the US careening to hell in a handbasket and there's not a damn thing we can do about it?

Until the election I suppose. But still.

I know what you mean, Jersey Girl. It seems to me that the prosecution team, especially Schiff, is doing a great job of laying out a watertight, highly credible case against Trump, while his defenders are relying largely on poorly thought out, easily demonstrable lies to defend him. What's worse is that they continue to maintain the ridiculous position that even if everything Trump has been accused of is absolutely true, it still does not constitute sufficient grounds to convict and remove him from office. Trump is apparently so reassured by this that he openly boasts of having done at least one of the very things he is being tried for!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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_aussieguy55
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _aussieguy55 »

I am amazed at how those who see Trump as the "chosen one" are not looking at the facts. Reminds me of a speech that Goebbels gave when Berlin was about to fall said "I could have told them to jump out of the windows and they would have done. " Reminds one one of Trump being able to shoot someone in the street

Watch the emotional speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YksqcLwzFnA
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
_moksha
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _moksha »

Once Republicans let Trump resume his crime spree, ... it is hard to continue this sentence because the lack of scruples that would countenance his actions is staggering. Republicans can no longer be counted on to act in good faith.
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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Gunnar wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Question. Does anyone else feel completely SICK about this trial?

I mean like we're watching the US careening to hell in a handbasket and there's not a damn thing we can do about it?

Until the election I suppose. But still.

I know what you mean, Jersey Girl. It seems to me that the prosecution team, especially Schiff, is doing a great job of laying out a watertight, highly credible case against Trump, while his defenders are relying largely on poorly thought out, easily demonstrable lies to defend him. What's worse is that they continue to maintain the ridiculous position that even if everything Trump has been accused of is absolutely true, it still does not constitute sufficient grounds to convict and remove him from office. Trump is apparently so reassured by this that he openly boasts of having done at least one of the very things he is being tried for!

When it finally dawned on me that evidence, witnesses and testimony would not be enough to penetrate the sandstorm of obfuscation and willful ignorance, I got profoundly depressed. I stopped watching the news as much. When I believed that there were still open minds, watching the news meant seeing all of the information being uncovered that could convince Senators there was no way not to see what had happened was an impeachable abuse of power. But after a while it became clear that whatever would be allowed would not be enough.

Yesterday I made a comment about Schiff speaking to history, and that is the best thing about watching the hearings. There was a time I believed that most Americans would have been swayed by the case made by the case managers yesterday. Fox News didn't show the impeachment in prime time, they reserved those spots for their commentators. Some of Schiff's words fall on deaf ears, but many make the conscious choice not to listen. It is all but assured that the President is not convicted, it will be because a lot of people chose to look the other way.

I think the question now becomes: How self-correcting is our Democracy? If Donald Trump wins in 2020, the road back could be long. But I do think there is a road back. In order to stay on the road, Americans have to take being citizens more soberly and carefully that they currently do. Whether or not Trump's Presidency serves as a wake-up call remains to be seen.
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_moksha
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _moksha »

moksha wrote:Republicans can no longer be counted on to act in good faith.

You could call it a kangaroo court, but haven't kangaroos suffered enough with those fires?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Thanks, Gunnar and MeDot. Yes, I feel myself checking out from this mentally. I think we all know that the outcome is predictable and nothing is going to be accomplished except to show us what how in the tank the Republicans are and how willing they are to look like complete fools in public in order to preserve their positions.

They clearly don't give a damn about the Constitution, doing right by the American people who pay their salary or even just doing their JOBS.

So...our vote is our only recourse.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Icarus
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Icarus »

Over the past five years, my perception of conservative politicians has changed drastically. I used to think they were mostly people of good will with whom I had a difference of opinion. Not any more. Since 2015 I have watched in stunned amazement as they have abandoned any principle they every pretended to have in cynical pursuit of power. Now I see almost all of them as nothing more than intentional, bad faith goons who will look you in the eye and lie to your face. They know better, but they just don't care.

Except maybe this Sekulow guy. His sloppiness, his incompetence, and his obvious stupidity, all on full display for years, lead me to think he really believes what he says because he doesn't know any better. Before he showed up as a flak for Donnie T. he ran a con game and telemarketing hustle, swindling dumb old people by promising them Jesus in exchange for their money. It was the perfect preparation for his current job.

Team Trump flubs quid-pro-argument in embarrassing fashion

There was a curious moment in the first day of Donald Trump’s Senate impeachment trial in which one of the president’s attorneys, Jay Sekulow, chided House impeachment managers for using a curious phrase.

“ ‘Lawyer lawsuits’?” Sekulow asked incredulously. “ ‘Lawyer lawsuits’? … The managers are complaining about ‘lawyer lawsuits’? The Constitution allows lawyer lawsuits. It’s disrespecting the Constitution of the United States to even say that in this chamber – ‘lawyer lawsuits.’”

No one had any idea what he was talking about, but eventually it became clear that one of the House managers referenced “FOIA lawsuits” – in reference to the Freedom of Information Act – and Sekulow misunderstood. Nevertheless, the White House, true to form, refused to acknowledge the misstep, and said Sekulow’s mistake was actually correct.

It was a reminder that Trump’s legal team, led in part by a controversial attorney who leads a televangelist’s legal operation, may not fully be up to the task at hand.


AP FACT CHECK: Trump defense misrepresents Mueller findings

WASHINGTON (AP) — In opening arguments of the impeachment trial, President Donald Trump’s defense misrepresented the findings of a special counsel’s report on Russian interference in the 2016 election by claiming the president was cleared of obstruction of justice.

A look at some of his legal team’s claims Tuesday during debate on the format of the Senate trial:

JAY SEKULOW, on special counsel Robert Mueller: “We had the invocation of the ghost of the Mueller report. I know something about that report. It came up empty on the issue of collusion with Russia. There was no obstruction, in fact.”

THE FACTS: He’s wrong to suggest that special counsel Robert Mueller’s report cleared the Trump campaign of collusion with Russia. Nor did the report exonerate Trump on the question of whether he obstructed justice.

Instead, the report factually laid out instances in which Trump might have obstructed justice, leaving it open for Congress to take up the matter or for prosecutors to do so once Trump leaves office.

“If we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so,” Mueller declared after the report was released.

SEKULOW: “During the proceedings that took place before the Judiciary Committee, the president was denied the right to cross-examine witnesses. The president was denied the right to access evidence. And the president was denied the right to have counsel present at hearings.”

THE FACTS: That’s false. The House Judiciary Committee, which produced the articles of impeachment, invited Trump or his legal team to come. He declined.

Absent White House representation, the hearings proceeded as things in Congress routinely do: Time was split between Democratic and Republican lawmakers to ask questions and engage in the debate. Lawyers for Democrats and Republicans on the committee presented the case for and against the impeachment articles and members questioned witnesses, among them an academic called forward by Republicans.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Some Schmo »

MeDotOrg wrote:But I do think there is a road back. In order to stay on the road, Americans have to take being citizens more soberly and carefully that they currently do. Whether or not Trump's Presidency serves as a wake-up call remains to be seen.

This is exactly why I've lost all hope. I don't have any belief that Americans will take being citizens more seriously. You abandon any pretense of seriousness the moment you flick on Fox News.

Americans are stupid, fat and lazy and in the prime position to watch their country fall toward the ruin it's heading.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Icarus wrote:
Except maybe this Sekulow guy. His sloppiness, his incompetence, and his obvious stupidity, all on full display for years, lead me to think he really believes what he says because he doesn't know any better. Before he showed up as a flak for Donnie T. he ran a con game and telemarketing hustle, swindling dumb old people by promising them Jesus in exchange for their money. It was the perfect preparation for his current job.

Team Trump flubs quid-pro-argument in embarrassing fashion

There was a curious moment in the first day of Donald Trump’s Senate impeachment trial in which one of the president’s attorneys, Jay Sekulow, chided House impeachment managers for using a curious phrase.

“ ‘Lawyer lawsuits’?” Sekulow asked incredulously. “ ‘Lawyer lawsuits’? … The managers are complaining about ‘lawyer lawsuits’? The Constitution allows lawyer lawsuits. It’s disrespecting the Constitution of the United States to even say that in this chamber – ‘lawyer lawsuits.’”

No one had any idea what he was talking about, but eventually it became clear that one of the House managers referenced “FOIA lawsuits” – in reference to the Freedom of Information Act – and Sekulow misunderstood. Nevertheless, the White House, true to form, refused to acknowledge the misstep, and said Sekulow’s mistake was actually correct.

It was a reminder that Trump’s legal team, led in part by a controversial attorney who leads a televangelist’s legal operation, may not fully be up to the task at hand.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: IS anyone surprised by this? Sadly, the GOP senators, and the Trump supporters watching at home, think this guy is doing a great job.
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_Gunnar
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Gunnar »

DarkHelmet wrote:
Icarus wrote:It was a reminder that Trump’s legal team, led in part by a controversial attorney who leads a televangelist’s legal operation, may not fully be up to the task at hand.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: IS anyone surprised by this? Sadly, the GOP senators, and the Trump supporters watching at home, think this guy is doing a great job.

It is not at all surprising to learn that Trump's legal team is led in part by a controversial attorney whose clients include televangelist scam artists, and who has worked much of his life to undermine the wall of separation between church and state.

I doubt very much that the GOP senators think that he is really doing a great job. It is coming increasingly obvious that they couldn't care less how good a job he is doing or even whether he is honest and truthful. All they care about is him providing any straw they can grasp at to rationalize acquitting Trump, regardless of how guilty he is, because they think that necessary to ensure their own reelection. I sincerely hope this ultimately turns out to be a serious miscalculation on their part. I think there are just enough people already sufficiently disgusted with Trump to significantly diminish the chances of Trump supporters being reelected, and that number is likely to grow.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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