Personhood and Abortion Rights

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_EAllusion
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

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Chap wrote:Having your body used as a life support system for nine months, by a growing organism that ruthlessly changes your body in its own interests, and then makes you go through what can be a traumatic physical process when it needs to leave you - that is a lot bigger a demand than a blood transfusion, or (I suspect) a kidney donation by a healthy person.
Once you move off the principle that it's always wrong for the state to coerce people to allow their bodies to be used for the well-being of others, then you're dealing with a different set of arguments.

There's a famous thought experiment meant to analogize a class of abortion arguments that starts with the premise that you wake up one day with another person hooked up to your organs for life-support. When it comes to whether the state can make it illegal to unhook yourself, the class of arguments that says, "No, you own your body, not the state. It's always wrong for the state to tell you how to use your body against your will," are hard to defend and very quickly come into conflict with things liberals purport to believe.
_EAllusion
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

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Res Ipsa wrote:
I think you're overlooking the personal/privacy dimension of the intrusion when it comes to abortion. in my opinion, that's what distinguishes the government, say, forcing me to donate a kidney, from taxing my wages to pay for a kidney.

I don't think I'm making property-based argument. That's you Libertarians. :wink: I don't derive my position by starting with "I own my body, therefore the government can't poke or prod me." Frankly, I think the Libertarian treatment of the body as property is shallow and misguided. But that's just me.


How you spend your money is inherently no more or less a private matter than what you do with your uterus. You can say one is private and the other is not in a question-begging way, but that doesn't move the ball.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _Res Ipsa »

EAllusion wrote:
Chap wrote:Having your body used as a life support system for nine months, by a growing organism that ruthlessly changes your body in its own interests, and then makes you go through what can be a traumatic physical process when it needs to leave you - that is a lot bigger a demand than a blood transfusion, or (I suspect) a kidney donation by a healthy person.
Once you move off the principle that it's always wrong for the state to coerce people to allow their bodies to be used for the well-being of others, then you're dealing with a different set of arguments.

There's a famous thought experiment meant to analogize a class of abortion arguments that starts with the premise that you wake up one day with another person hooked up to your organs for life-support. When it comes to whether the state can make it illegal to unhook yourself, the class of arguments that says, "No, you own your body, not the state. It's always wrong for the state to tell you how to use your body against your will," are hard to defend and very quickly come into conflict with things liberals purport to believe.


Yeah, I heard that thought experiment derived years ago. But you've put a libertarian spin on it. When I heard it, it didn't include the statement "you own your own body." It was an argument from liberty/privacy. Man, you property fetishists really screw things up. :wink:

Just to be clear, please note that I have not taken the position "It's always wrong for the state to tell you how to use your body against your will." My position is more limited than that.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Afterward, my wife joined a support website for people who terminated pregnancies because of defects. After a while, I joined, too. I don't recall posting much, if ever. I just read. Most of the people were women but there were a few men. I read story after story after story. They were all different and all poignant. I came away convinced that this was a decision we could and should trust to the pregnant women. The issues involved are so deep and so personal that the state should not intrude.


Exactly. Which is why I previously stated:


The number of abortion procedures performed in the United States in 2015:

638,169

In my mind that represents 638,169 stories of women.
It also represents 638,169 stories of men.

All total, well over a million stories are represented by that stat.

I have no way of knowing each person's individual story, what their motivations to go forward with the procedures were, much less am I in a position to judge them.


In my mind, we have no right whatsover to take choice out of the hands of women. Only she knows her circumstance, her beliefs, the depth to which she holds such beliefs and what is right and best for her to do or not do given all of the above.

The very best we can do is to be there and lend our support regardless of what choice is made. That's what I do. It's what I've done for decades. No woman will ever get a judgement from me in that regard.

She'll get my support.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _Res Ipsa »

EAllusion wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I think you're overlooking the personal/privacy dimension of the intrusion when it comes to abortion. in my opinion, that's what distinguishes the government, say, forcing me to donate a kidney, from taxing my wages to pay for a kidney.

I don't think I'm making property-based argument. That's you Libertarians. :wink: I don't derive my position by starting with "I own my body, therefore the government can't poke or prod me." Frankly, I think the Libertarian treatment of the body as property is shallow and misguided. But that's just me.


How you spend your money is inherently no more or less a private matter than what you do with your uterus. You can say one is private and the other is not in a question-begging way, but that doesn't move the ball.


What I do with my uterus is none of your business, thank you. :wink:

If you want me to answer the question: spending money isn't inherently a private matter at all. Discussions about how to spend everyone's money take place everywhere. You go to the grocery store and spend your money right in front of strangers. Spending money is about as public an activity as it gets.

Uterus, not so much. In an office with a doctor, with privacy protected by the government.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _Jersey Girl »

EAllusion wrote:
How you spend your money is inherently no more or less a private matter than what you do with your uterus. You can say one is private and the other is not in a question-begging way, but that doesn't move the ball.


Holy crap.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _EAllusion »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Just to be clear, please note that I have not taken the position "It's always wrong for the state to tell you how to use your body against your will." My position is more limited than that.


The reason bodily property rights get brought up is that's the most robust way to do it. The "violinist" thought experiment I referred to is almost always discussed in the context of property rights. This gives libertarian rights theorists something to talk about, but it's not only them who see that argument that way. I don't see "privacy" come up much at all in the ethical debate. It exists in a legal context due to the dubious interpretative reach used to get to Roe vs. Wade.
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _EAllusion »

Here's my favorite philosophy blog discussing it:

https://philosophicaldisquisitions.blog ... inist.html

Here is a simple argument against abortion:


(1) If an entity (X) has a right to life, it is, ceteris paribus, not permissible to terminate that entity’s existence.
(2) The foetus has a right to life.
(3) Therefore, it is not permissible to kill or terminate the foetus’s existence.


Defenders of abortion will criticise at least one of the premises of this argument. Many will challenge premise (2). They will argue that the foetus is not a person and hence does not have a right to life. Anti-abortion advocates will respond by saying that it is person or that it has some other status that gives it a right to life. This gets us into some abstruse questions on the metaphysics of personhood and moral status.

The other pro-choice strategy is to challenge premise (1) and argue that there are exceptions to the principle in questions. Indeed, exceptions seem to abound. There are situations in which one right to life must be balanced against another and in those situations it is permissible for one individual to kill another. This is the typical case of self-defence: someone immediately and credibly threatens to end your life and the only way to neutralise that threat is to end theirs. Killing them is permissible in these circumstances. A pro-choice advocate might argue that there are some circumstances in which pregnancy is analogous to the typical case of self-defence, i.e. there are cases where the foetus poses an immediate and credible threat to the life of the mother and the only way to neutralise that threat is to end the life of the foetus.

The trickier scenario is where the mother’s life is unthreatened. In those cases, if the foetus has a right to life, anti-abortionists will argue that the following duty holds:

Gestational duty: If a woman’s life is unthreatened by her being pregnant, she has a duty to carry the foetus to term.

The rationale for this is that the woman’s right to control her body cannot Trump the foetus’ right to life. In the moral pecking order, the right to life ranks higher than the right to do with one’s body as one pleases.

It is precisely this understanding of the gestational duty that Judith Jarvis Thomson challenged in her famous 1971 article ‘A Defense of Abortion’. She did so by way of some ingenious thought experiments featuring sick violinists, expanding babies and floating ‘people-seeds’. Much has been written about those thought experiments in the intervening years. I want to take a look at some recent criticism and commentary from John Martin Fischer. He tries to show that Thomson’s thought experiments don’t provide as much guidance for the typical case of pregnancy as we initially assume, but this, in turn, does not provide succour for the opponents of abortion.

I’ll divide my discussion up over two posts. In this post, I’ll look at Fischer’s analysis of the Violinist thought experiment. In the next one, I’ll look at his analysis of the ‘people seeds’ thought experiment.


1. The Violinist Thought Experiment
The most famous thought experiment from Thomson’s article is the one about the violinist. Even if you know nothing about the broader abortion debate, you have probably come across this thought experiment. Here it is in all its original glory:

The Violinist: ‘You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist’s circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, “Look, we’re sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you — we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it’s only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.”’ (1971: 132)

Do you have a duty to remain plugged into the violinist? Thomson argues that you don’t; that intuitively, in this case, it is permissible to unplug yourself from the violinist. That doesn’t mean we would praise you for doing it — we might think it is morally better for you to stay plugged in — but it does mean that we don’t think you are blameworthy for unplugging. In this case, your right to control your own body Trump's the violinist’s right to life.

Where does that get us? The argument is that the case of the violinist is very similar to the case of pregnancy resulting from rape. In both cases you are involuntarily placed in position whereby somebody else’s life is dependent on being attached to your body for nine months. By analogy, if your right to control your own body Trump's the violinist’s right to life, it will also Trump the foetus’ right to life:


(4) In the violinist case, you have no duty to stay plugged into the violinist (i.e. your right to control your own body Trump's his right to life).
(5) Pregnancy resulting from rape is similar to the violinist case in all important respects.
(6) Therefore, probably, you have no duty to carry the foetus to term in the case of pregnancy resulting from rape (i.e. your right to control your own body Trump's the foetus’ right to life).


Since it will be useful for later purposes, I’ve tried to map the basic logic of this argument from analogy in the diagram below. The diagram is saying that the two cases are sufficiently similar so that it is reasonable to suppose that the moral principle that applies to the first case carries over to the second.

Image


2. Fischer’s Criticism of the Violinist Thought Experiment
In his article, ‘Abortion and Ownership’, Fischer challenges Thomson’s intuitive reaction to The Violinist. His argumentative strategy is subtle and interesting. He builds up a chain of counter-analogies (i.e. analogies in which the opposite principle applies) and argues that they are sufficient to cast doubt on the conclusion that your right to control your own body Trump's the violinist’s right to life.

He starts with a thought experiment from Joel Feinberg:

Cabin Case 1: “Suppose that you are on a backpacking trip in the high mountain country when an unanticipated blizzard strikes the area with such ferocity that your life is imperiled. Fortunately, you stumble onto an unoccupied cabin, locked and boarded up for the winter, clearly somebody else’s private property. You smash in a window, enter, and huddle in a corner for three days until the storm abates. During this period you help yourself to your unknown benefactor’s food supply and burn his wooden furniture in the fireplace to keep warm.” (Feinberg 1978, 102)

Feinberg thinks that in this case you have a right to break into the house and use the available resources. The problem is that this clearly violates the cabin-owner’s right to control their property. Still, the fact that you are justified in violating that right tells us something interesting. It tells us that, in this scenario, the right to life Trump's the right to control one’s own property.

So what? The right of the cabin-owner to control his/her property is very different from your right to control your body (in the case of the violinist and pregnancy-from-rape). For one thing, the violation in the case of cabin owner is short-lived, only lasting three days, until the storm abates. Furthermore, it requires no immediate interference with their enjoyment of the property or with their bodies. We are explicitly told that the cabin is unoccupied at the time. So, on an initial glance, it doesn’t seem like the Cabin Case 1 tells us anything interesting about abortion.

Fischer begs to differ. He tries to construct a series of thought experiments that bridge the gap between the Cabin Case 1 and The Violinist. He does so by first imagining a case in which the property-owner is present at the time of the interference and in which the interference will continue for at least nine months:

Cabin Case 2: "You have secured a cabin in an extremely remote and inaccessible place in the mountains. You wish to be alone; you have enough supplies for yourself, and also some extras in case of an emergency. Unfortunately, a very evil man has kidnapped an innocent person and [left] him to die in the desolate mountain country near your cabin. The innocent person wanders for hours and finally happens upon your cabin…You can radio for help, but because of the remoteness and inaccessibility of your cabin and the relatively primitive technology of the country in which it is located, the rescue party will require nine months to reach your cabin…You can let the innocent stranger into your cabin and provide food and shelter until the rescue party arrives in nine months, or you can forcibly prevent him from entering your cabin and thus cause his death (or perhaps allow him to die)." (Fischer 1991, 6)

Fischers argues that, intuitively, in this case the innocent person still has the right to use your property and emergency resources and you have a duty of beneficence to them. In other words, their right to life Trump's your right to control and use your property. Of course, a fan of Thomson’s original thought experiment might still resist this by arguing that the rights violation in this second Cabin Case is different because it does not involve any direct bodily interference. So Fischer comes up with a third variation that involves precisely that:

Cabin Case 3: The same scenario as Cabin Case 2, except that the innocent person is tiny and injured and would need to be carried around on your back for the nine-months. You are physically capable of doing this.

Fischer argues that the intuition doesn’t change in this case. He thinks we still have a duty of beneficence to the innocent stranger, despite the fact that it involves a nine-month interference with our right to control our properties and our bodies. The right to life still Trump's both. This is important because Cabin Case 3 is, according to Fischer, very similar to the Violinist.

What Fischer is arguing, then, is sketched in the diagram below. He is arguing that the principle that applies in Cabin Case 1 carries over to Cabin Case 3 and that there is no relevant moral difference between Cabin Case 3 and the Violinist. Thomson’s original argument is, thereby, undermined.

Image


For what it’s worth, I’m not entirely convinced by this line of reasoning. I don’t quite share Fischer’s intuition about Cabin Case 3. I think that if you really imagined the inconvenience and risk that would be involved in carrying another person around on your back for nine months you might not be so quick to imply a duty of beneficence. That reveals one of the big problems with this debate: esoteric thought experiments can generate different intuitive reactions.


3. What does this mean for abortion?
Let’s suppose Fischer is correct in his reasoning. What follows? One thing that follows is that the right to life Trump's the right to control one’s body in the case of the Violinist. But does it thereby follow that the right to life Trump's the right to control one’s body in the case of pregnancy from rape? Not necessarily. Fischer argues that there could be important differences between the two scenarios, overlooked in Thomson’s original discussion, that warrant a different conclusion in the rape scenario. A few examples spring to mind.

In the case of pregnancy resulting from rape, both the woman and the rapist will have a genetic link with the resulting child and will be its natural parents. The woman is likely to have some natural affection and feelings of obligation toward the child, but this may be tempered by the fact that the child (innocent and all as it is) is a potential reminder (trigger) of the trauma of the rape that led to its existence. The woman may give the child up for adoption — and thereby absolve herself of legal duties toward it — but this may not dissolve any natural feelings of affection and obligation. Furthermore, the child may be curious about its biological parentage in later years and may seek a relationship with its natural mother or father (it may need to do so because it requires information about its genetic lineage). All of which is to say, that the relationship between the mother and child is very different from the relationship between you and the violinist or you and the tiny innocent person you have to carry on your back. Those relationships normatively and naturally dissolve after the nine-month period of dependency. This is not true in the case of the mother and her offspring. The interference with her rights lingers.

These differences may be sufficient to warrant a different conclusion in the case of pregnancy resulting from rape. But this is little advantage for the pro-choice advocate for it says nothing about other pregnancies. There are critics of abortion who are willing to concede that it should be an option in cases of rape. They argue that this doesn’t affect the gestational duty in the larger range of cases where pregnancy results from consensual sexual intercourse. That’s where Thomson’s other thought experiment (People Seeds) comes into play. I’ll look at that thought experiment, along with Fischer’s analysis of it, in the next post.
_EAllusion
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _EAllusion »

Jersey Girl wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
How you spend your money is inherently no more or less a private matter than what you do with your uterus. You can say one is private and the other is not in a question-begging way, but that doesn't move the ball.


Holy ____.


There isn't a law written in nature that your transactions are something the public has a right to know, but what is in your uterus is something the public doesn't have a right to know. One is not inherently private while the other is inherently public, in other words. They're both private things in a natural state of affairs that you have to create arguments why they can or should become public.

You might think there are good reasons making transactions public, but not knowledge about your uterus, but good luck creating an argument that it's so important to protect the privacy of what's in your uterus that you are justified killing someone to protect that right. "Privacy" is such a ridiculous basis to try and locate a right to an abortion in.
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Re: Personhood and Abortion Rights

Post by _Jersey Girl »

EAllusion wrote:
There isn't a law written in nature that your transactions are something the public has a right to know, but what is in your uterus is something the public doesn't have a right to know. You might think there are good reasons for the former, but not the latter, but good luck creating an argument that it's so important to protect the privacy of what's in your uterus that you are justified killing someone to protect that right.


Believe it or not, some of us aren't invested in creating an argument.
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